Done Better than Expected - That will be £1.7bn then - WTF!

[XJ Flyer]

AJS- said:

unrepentant said:

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Since 1973 we've had 18 years of Labour governments and 19 years of Tory governments, then 4 years of a Tory led coalition. Labour gave us one referendum. In addition to signing the Treaty of Rome in the first place the Tories gave us the Single European Act, the joys of the ERM and Maastricht, then most recently reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.

The Tories are not to be trusted on Europe. On the contrary, our best chance of getting out of this mess is to stop trusting the Conservative party to do anything positive at all, and make sure the relatively few decent people still wearing a blue rosette defect to UKIP.

Ironically history suggests that there'd be more chance of turning the Labour Party against EU membership than the Cons.As Enoch Powell rightly realised.

[Art0ir]

XJ Flyer said:

Ironically history suggests that there'd be more chance of turning the Labour Party against EU membership than the Cons.As Enoch Powell rightly realised.

It is generally the left across Northern Europe and the Med that makes up the Eurosceptic movement in fairness.

[Esseesse]

XJ Flyer said:

AJS- said:

unrepentant said:

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Since 1973 we've had 18 years of Labour governments and 19 years of Tory governments, then 4 years of a Tory led coalition. Labour gave us one referendum. In addition to signing the Treaty of Rome in the first place the Tories gave us the Single European Act, the joys of the ERM and Maastricht, then most recently reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.

The Tories are not to be trusted on Europe. On the contrary, our best chance of getting out of this mess is to stop trusting the Conservative party to do anything positive at all, and make sure the relatively few decent people still wearing a blue rosette defect to UKIP.

Ironically history suggests that there'd be more chance of turning the Labour Party against EU membership than the Cons.As Enoch Powell rightly realised.

I would have voted for the Labour party that Enoch backed. Would you? It's pretty uncertain IMO, but I would like to see UKIP denying Labour seats enough to get them to promise a referendum (or get a EU sceptic leader).

[unrepentant]

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

In large tracts of the North of England only UKIP stand a chance of displacing Labour, the Tories are dead there. What you should be advocating is that the Tories stop splitting the UKIP vote in those constituencies.

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Drivel. In the Middleton by-election UKIP fell short by only 600 odd votes of displacing Labour. If the few thousand Tory voters just woke up and realised they could not possibly win that seat then UKIP would have stormed it.

Drivel. It was a by election and meaningless in GE terms. Labour will win it with a comfortable majority next year.

[unrepentant]

dandarez said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

Face the truth, Dave's the loser.
IF there had been no UKIP he would probably have signed the cheque today, not in December.

As for parties being wiped out, it won't be UKIP. Limpdems will be first, and the wilderness is beckoning for the Tories if CMD is still at the helm.

You can warble on all day, the train is not stopping.

Wait and see.

I'm no fan of Camoron or the Tories. I'd happily watch them destruct. After they lose the election next year they will jettison him, move to the right and promise an in / out referendum as soon as they get back in. And that will be the end of UKIP.

[XJ Flyer]

Esseesse said:

XJ Flyer said:

AJS- said:

unrepentant said:

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Since 1973 we've had 18 years of Labour governments and 19 years of Tory governments, then 4 years of a Tory led coalition. Labour gave us one referendum. In addition to signing the Treaty of Rome in the first place the Tories gave us the Single European Act, the joys of the ERM and Maastricht, then most recently reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.

The Tories are not to be trusted on Europe. On the contrary, our best chance of getting out of this mess is to stop trusting the Conservative party to do anything positive at all, and make sure the relatively few decent people still wearing a blue rosette defect to UKIP.

Ironically history suggests that there'd be more chance of turning the Labour Party against EU membership than the Cons.As Enoch Powell rightly realised.

I would have voted for the Labour party that Enoch backed. Would you? It's pretty uncertain IMO, but I would like to see UKIP denying Labour seats enough to get them to promise a referendum (or get a EU sceptic leader).

I've said elsewhere I think that Peter Shore was the best PM we never had.

[Esseesse]

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

In large tracts of the North of England only UKIP stand a chance of displacing Labour, the Tories are dead there. What you should be advocating is that the Tories stop splitting the UKIP vote in those constituencies.

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Drivel. In the Middleton by-election UKIP fell short by only 600 odd votes of displacing Labour. If the few thousand Tory voters just woke up and realised they could not possibly win that seat then UKIP would have stormed it.

Drivel. It was a by election and meaningless in GE terms. Labour will win it with a comfortable majority next year.

Without such confidence, I agree with you. Could be an interesting seat 5 years later if Labour win the GE/form coalition.

[s2art]

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

In large tracts of the North of England only UKIP stand a chance of displacing Labour, the Tories are dead there. What you should be advocating is that the Tories stop splitting the UKIP vote in those constituencies.

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Drivel. In the Middleton by-election UKIP fell short by only 600 odd votes of displacing Labour. If the few thousand Tory voters just woke up and realised they could not possibly win that seat then UKIP would have stormed it.

Drivel. It was a by election and meaningless in GE terms. Labour will win it with a comfortable majority next year.

LOL. So you think a 600 ish vote majority is some sort of resounding victory for Labour? It demonstrated that UKIP can take Labour seats if the Tories dont split their vote. Lets see how people feel when another 1.7 billion gets passed across to Brussels. And No, Cameron will not stop it happening, it will, at best, get deferred/delayed.

[shred2bits]

AJS- said:

shred2bits said:

I'm just wondering what the headlines would be if we would've be liable to receive a rebate or whatever it's called and France and Germany refused to pay? Tbh it doesn't bother me as 2bn is probably nothing compared to what we spend on the wars we've been fighting for no reason. Didn't Cameron go and shout at other countries who didn't pay enough to stop Ebola?

Going off £1.8bn between 60 million people I make it £30 for every man, woman and child in the country. Since my wife and daughter don't work that's £90 from me. Without even considering who pays on behalf of the penaioners, public sector workers, benefit recipients and others who don't contribute, which at roughly 50% means £180. Glad if that's nothing to you but it would be useful to me. Mention me on a cheque.

But thats not what I asked, the nhs spent 3.2bn on support staff last year so realistically not a huge number. Cameron is not a leader, if Nick Clegg comes out and says he supports this payment ill be voting Lib Dem just because he stands by his cause

[XJ Flyer]

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

In large tracts of the North of England only UKIP stand a chance of displacing Labour, the Tories are dead there. What you should be advocating is that the Tories stop splitting the UKIP vote in those constituencies.

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Drivel. In the Middleton by-election UKIP fell short by only 600 odd votes of displacing Labour. If the few thousand Tory voters just woke up and realised they could not possibly win that seat then UKIP would have stormed it.

Drivel. It was a by election and meaningless in GE terms. Labour will win it with a comfortable majority next year.

LOL. So you think a 600 ish vote majority is some sort of resounding victory for Labour? It demonstrated that UKIP can take Labour seats if the Tories dont split their vote. Lets see how people feel when another 1.7 billion gets passed across to Brussels. And No, Cameron will not stop it happening, it will, at best, get deferred/delayed.

I think Cameron made it clear enough that his issue is all about timing and time to pay not stopping payment.No doubt because it affects his chances in the next by election.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 24th October 22:34

[XJ Flyer]

shred2bits said:

AJS- said:

shred2bits said:

I'm just wondering what the headlines would be if we would've be liable to receive a rebate or whatever it's called and France and Germany refused to pay? Tbh it doesn't bother me as 2bn is probably nothing compared to what we spend on the wars we've been fighting for no reason. Didn't Cameron go and shout at other countries who didn't pay enough to stop Ebola?

Going off £1.8bn between 60 million people I make it £30 for every man, woman and child in the country. Since my wife and daughter don't work that's £90 from me. Without even considering who pays on behalf of the penaioners, public sector workers, benefit recipients and others who don't contribute, which at roughly 50% means £180. Glad if that's nothing to you but it would be useful to me. Mention me on a cheque.

But thats not what I asked, the nhs spent 3.2bn on support staff last year so realistically not a huge number. Cameron is not a leader, if Nick Clegg comes out and says he supports this payment ill be voting Lib Dem just because he stands by his cause

The fact is that is just a small addition to the whole amount be hand over every day as part of our net contribution to the scam.Like the global warming issue if the LabLibdemCon voters want to keep paying for both then let them pay for it all while UKIP voters are exempted.

[Esseesse]

XJ Flyer said:

Esseesse said:

XJ Flyer said:

AJS- said:

unrepentant said:

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Since 1973 we've had 18 years of Labour governments and 19 years of Tory governments, then 4 years of a Tory led coalition. Labour gave us one referendum. In addition to signing the Treaty of Rome in the first place the Tories gave us the Single European Act, the joys of the ERM and Maastricht, then most recently reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.

The Tories are not to be trusted on Europe. On the contrary, our best chance of getting out of this mess is to stop trusting the Conservative party to do anything positive at all, and make sure the relatively few decent people still wearing a blue rosette defect to UKIP.

Ironically history suggests that there'd be more chance of turning the Labour Party against EU membership than the Cons.As Enoch Powell rightly realised.

I would have voted for the Labour party that Enoch backed. Would you? It's pretty uncertain IMO, but I would like to see UKIP denying Labour seats enough to get them to promise a referendum (or get a EU sceptic leader).

I've said elsewhere I think that Peter Shore was the best PM we never had.

Interesting, I hardly know anything about him.

Just noticed this... In 2013, Shore's widow and their daughter both stood as United Kingdom Independence Party candidates in local elections in West Cornwall.

[Foppo]

Northern Munkee said:

To be fair I thought Cameron was genuinely upset (and that's good for a change), still it shows he either is embarrassed he wasn't briefed, or he realises how badly it will play in the UK and Rochester. I'm not convinced he (or rather we) are not*going to pay (rather borrow) the bill at all. Indeed I'd still not vote for him, until there's a date of referendum date (in writing).

Nothing much from Ed, I suggest he claim he's going to use his mansion tax (again) to pay for it and claim when he said 10000 more midwives, 20000 nurses, 5000 doctors (or whatever it was) he says that he didn't specify which country they'd be employed, as in they'll be in France, Germany, etc.

ETA *not

Edited by Northern Munkee on Friday 24th October 19:54

Don't believe it good acting on Cameron's part.Money will go in after Dec Ist.Cameron has Nigel on his back he has to make a show.>;)

[AJS-]

shred2bits said:

AJS- said:

shred2bits said:

I'm just wondering what the headlines would be if we would've be liable to receive a rebate or whatever it's called and France and Germany refused to pay? Tbh it doesn't bother me as 2bn is probably nothing compared to what we spend on the wars we've been fighting for no reason. Didn't Cameron go and shout at other countries who didn't pay enough to stop Ebola?

Going off £1.8bn between 60 million people I make it £30 for every man, woman and child in the country. Since my wife and daughter don't work that's £90 from me. Without even considering who pays on behalf of the penaioners, public sector workers, benefit recipients and others who don't contribute, which at roughly 50% means £180. Glad if that's nothing to you but it would be useful to me. Mention me on a cheque.

But thats not what I asked, the nhs spent 3.2bn on support staff last year so realistically not a huge number. Cameron is not a leader, if Nick Clegg comes out and says he supports this payment ill be voting Lib Dem just because he stands by his cause

But those support staff sorted records, input data, cleaned floors and did all the other tasks that support a health system which treats most of the the accidents and illnesses of 60 million people. I'm not saying there is no waste or that it couldn't be done more efficiently but at least it is something. The only benefits of the EU are the absence of trade restrictions and visa requirements. I.e. the things it doesn't do. Why should this cost an extra £2 bn this year?

£2bn is not "nothing" in any sense. It's an extraordinary amount of money.

As for Clegg and his principles - what a sorry state of affairs. His principles are plainly and simply wrong. Just because he has them it doesn't make them good. Without invoking Godwin, Stalin, Franco and Mao were principled men. They truly believed in their madcap schemes and stood by them. Would you vote for them too? Principles are great but the wrong principles are worse than none at all.

[sjn2004]

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

s2art said:

unrepentant said:

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

In large tracts of the North of England only UKIP stand a chance of displacing Labour, the Tories are dead there. What you should be advocating is that the Tories stop splitting the UKIP vote in those constituencies.

No, in large tracts of Northern England nobody is going to displace Labour. In large tracts of Southern England nobody is going to displace the Tories. Your only chance of getting out of the EU is to move the Tory party to your position and it's not a problam if you control the grass roots of each local constituency party. Think big, act local, the Tea Party nutters have shown you how to do it.

Drivel. In the Middleton by-election UKIP fell short by only 600 odd votes of displacing Labour. If the few thousand Tory voters just woke up and realised they could not possibly win that seat then UKIP would have stormed it.

Drivel. It was a by election and meaningless in GE terms. Labour will win it with a comfortable majority next year.

Who knows, but last month it was definitely a case of vote Tory, get Labour. The Tory party is dying up north and they know it. Some very angry Tories that night at the count.

[don4l]

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

[XJ Flyer]

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

^ This.Not only Europhiles but worse in the form of liars who are committed Europhiles while often trying to fool their gullible voters that they are the opposite.Which is one of the reasons why Enoch Powell was exiled by the Cons and Thatcher was made their leader after Heath.

[Esseesse]

XJ Flyer said:

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

^ This.Not only Europhiles but worse in the form of liars who are committed Europhiles while often trying to fool their gullible voters that they are the opposite.Which is one of the reasons why Enoch Powell was exiled by the Cons and Thatcher was made their leader after Heath.

I agree. I think Mr Barroso seems ok, I just dont agree with him. I trust him more than Cameron.

Those that think that the Conservatives are historically eurosceptics should watch 'this sceptic isle' by Peter Hitchens. I'm (only) 29, and it amounst other things was an eye opener for me. Remember it was the Tories that took us into the EEC in the first place, and they knew exactly what it would become.

[XJ Flyer]

Esseesse said:

XJ Flyer said:

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

^ This.Not only Europhiles but worse in the form of liars who are committed Europhiles while often trying to fool their gullible voters that they are the opposite.Which is one of the reasons why Enoch Powell was exiled by the Cons and Thatcher was made their leader after Heath.

I agree. I think Mr Barroso seems ok, I just dont agree with him. I trust him more than Cameron.

Those that think that the Conservatives are historically eurosceptics should watch 'this sceptic isle' by Peter Hitchens. I'm (only) 29, and it amounst other things was an eye opener for me. Remember it was the Tories that took us into the EEC in the first place, and they knew exactly what it would become.

^ This.The smoking gun is out there if the younger generations want to look for it.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1972/ja...


http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/ja...

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 25th October 01:42

[unrepentant]

don4l said:

unrepentant said:

don4l said:

Why on Earth should I try to change the socialist Conservative party when I agree with nearly all of UKIP's policies?

Much easier to simply support a party that I agree with.

Then you're always going to be backing a loser!

You can be an idealist and support the party that agrees with your narrow little Englander range of beliefs but which will never do more than have the odd token MP and which will eventually be wiped out - or you can change a party that is electable and which one day will be forced to move to a full Euro sceptic position, pissing on UKIP as it does so.

I suspect that you are young...

I've been familiar with the Conservatives since 1975. They have always been Europhiles.

I suspect that I'm not! I'm the son of a Tory politician and was a party member myself for many years. Rank and file Tory members have been Eurosceptic for a long time, their opinions are just not reflected by the people they send to Westminster. Many who campaigned for EU membership felt cheated by the Grocer and his cohorts afterwards.