right, i'm firmly in the atheist camp but.........
Discussion
Just in the milky way there are around 40 billion planets in the habitable zone and about 2 -3 trillion planets in our galaxy. There are roughly 200 billion galaxies - as far as we can tell. (Ha! 'We' makes me sound like a scientist 
).
I can't quite believe in Jebus. But I like what he stood for.
).I can't quite believe in Jebus. But I like what he stood for.
Simpo Two said:
Not patronising at all, merely a fact. The OP is free to ponder all he likes, but he's not going to extend the frontiers of human knowledge, merely come up with a random list of what ifs and maybes which achieve nothing other than make more lists of ifs and maybes.
As for 'a load of stuff appeared from nowhere', matter and energy are interconvertible.
So what, his asking the question led to me discovering a great speech by Douglas Adams that I had never seen before, so my knowledge was extended. Tuscaneer my not be Gene Vincent but I for one, still appreciated the thread.As for 'a load of stuff appeared from nowhere', matter and energy are interconvertible.
Simpo Two said:
Not patronising at all, merely a fact. The OP is free to ponder all he likes, but he's not going to extend the frontiers of human knowledge, merely come up with a random list of what ifs and maybes which achieve nothing other than make more lists of ifs and maybes.
Or he might actually find the answer to life, the universe, and everything. "And this time nobody would have to get nailed to anything."SpeckledJim said:
That's the nub of it. The hard-of-thinking look around and say "these conditions are perfect, so why am I here?"
instead of "these conditions are perfect, and that's why I am here"
Remove the assumption that we're special from the set of considerations, and the big 'mystery of life' balls
t dissolves.
Aha but we are sort of special in that if as you say we just sort of happened by accident, the conditions for us to "just happen" are mind bogglingly large. If I can form a crude analogy it would probably be like the equivalent of winning the lottery 100 times in row, we have literally beaten incredible odds to be here and we MAY in fact be unique in our galaxy at beating those odds. In that context, we are indeed pretty special for even being here. The fermi paradox goes into this in more detail.instead of "these conditions are perfect, and that's why I am here"
Remove the assumption that we're special from the set of considerations, and the big 'mystery of life' balls
t dissolves.Sometimes I think the fever to prove that we aren't special almost matches the fever to prove that we are. There are a great many people who seem quite taken with the idea that we are undeserving specks of dust in an uncaring universe. I'm not an expert on the human psyche by any means but that's quite a self depreciating view, it's almost as if thousands of years of forced religion have resulted in a sort of backlash and now we can say Nar Nar, told you there is no god, I'm not special, I'm insignificant and proud.
Personally I have no strong belief one way or the other as to the how\why we got here as I just don't think we know enough at this point in time to be so certain.
Guvernator said:
SpeckledJim said:
That's the nub of it. The hard-of-thinking look around and say "these conditions are perfect, so why am I here?"
instead of "these conditions are perfect, and that's why I am here"
Remove the assumption that we're special from the set of considerations, and the big 'mystery of life' ballst dissolves.
Aha but we are sort of special in that if as you say we just sort of happened by accident, the conditions for us to "just happen" are mind bogglingly large. If I can form a crude analogy it would probably be like the equivalent of winning the lottery 100 times in row, we have literally beaten incredible odds to be here and we MAY in fact be unique in our galaxy at beating those odds. In that context, we are indeed pretty special for even being here. The fermi paradox goes into this in more detail.instead of "these conditions are perfect, and that's why I am here"
Remove the assumption that we're special from the set of considerations, and the big 'mystery of life' balls
t dissolves.Sometimes I think the fever to prove that we aren't special almost matches the fever to prove that we are. There are a great many people who seem quite taken with the idea that we are undeserving specks of dust in an uncaring universe. I'm not an expert on the human psyche by any means but that's quite a self depreciating view, it's almost as if thousands of years of forced religion have resulted in a sort of backlash and now we can say Nar Nar, told you there is no god, I'm not special, I'm insignificant and proud.
Personally I have no strong belief one way or the other as to the how\why we got here as I just don't think we know enough at this point in time to be so certain.
So, unless we're believing that we ourselves are inherently special, then evidently, we aren't.
We DID happen by accident. But so did Saturn.
It's only because of an assumption that we're special that we gaze in wonder at ourselves (simply one manifestation of conditions on earth), but we don't wonder in similar awe at the conditions on Saturn, which are just as unique.
tuscaneer said:
likewise mate, after a hundred or so pages all the words just sort of melted together. I really liked the start and the Einstein rubber sheet analogy for gravitational attraction but not too long after the wheels came off!
It's a difficult read I'll grant you but I've read it. All of it. I've also read somewhere that only 10% of people can actually read it and even less fully understand it. That doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else. Just more determined/obstinate.I buy and read many-many Cosmology/Physics books and most of them have whole sections I don't understand but every now and then I'm able to understand the odd concept or two from the book as a whole and it makes the whole effort worthwhile.
The books on 'Time' and 'String Theory/Supersymmetry' I find the most difficult and if I grasp 2 out of every 10 chapters I figure I'm ahead.
One way I look at it, Jupiter is potentially our killer. But that planets formation was all down to a chaotic beginning and a lot of chance, and if that asteroid with our name on it arrives, nothing in the whole universe will give a jot. Except for us of course but what you gonna do about it?
jmorgan said:
One way I look at it, Jupiter is potentially our killer. But that planets formation was all down to a chaotic beginning and a lot of chance, and if that asteroid with our name on it arrives, nothing in the whole universe will give a jot. Except for us of course but what you gonna do about it?
Earth is doomed one way or another, but the chances of us proving longer-lived than the earth are very low. After all, none of the species that have come and gone before us managed it. did you see when Derren Brown tossed a coin and it landed heads up 10 times in a row ?
That result is equivalent to us. We can never know how many times life made it to swamp level and no further.
We are the 10 times in a row footage !
What that doesn't make us, is special .....in any way.
That result is equivalent to us. We can never know how many times life made it to swamp level and no further.
We are the 10 times in a row footage !
What that doesn't make us, is special .....in any way.
Edited by Chimune on Friday 31st October 10:33
SpeckledJim said:
jmorgan said:
One way I look at it, Jupiter is potentially our killer. But that planets formation was all down to a chaotic beginning and a lot of chance, and if that asteroid with our name on it arrives, nothing in the whole universe will give a jot. Except for us of course but what you gonna do about it?
Earth is doomed one way or another, but the chances of us proving longer-lived than the earth are very low. After all, none of the species that have come and gone before us managed it. SpeckledJim said:
The precise conditions on earth are unusual. The odds of earth being like it is are long. But the precise conditions on all the other planets are also unusual. The odds of Saturn being exactly like it is are just as long as the odds for earth.
So, unless we're believing that we ourselves are inherently special, then evidently, we aren't.
We DID happen by accident. But so did Saturn.
It's only because of an assumption that we're special that we gaze in wonder at ourselves (simply one manifestation of conditions on earth), but we don't wonder in similar awe at the conditions on Saturn, which are just as unique.
Yes but the fact that both Saturn and Earth are unique is just one facet, the fact that life appeared on Earth at all is another facet, the fact that we have then evolved to a stage where we are intelligent enough to contemplate our place in the universe is one step further again. So, unless we're believing that we ourselves are inherently special, then evidently, we aren't.
We DID happen by accident. But so did Saturn.
It's only because of an assumption that we're special that we gaze in wonder at ourselves (simply one manifestation of conditions on earth), but we don't wonder in similar awe at the conditions on Saturn, which are just as unique.
If I can use the lottery analogy again the chances of planets as unique as Earth and Saturn are like getting 5 numbers right, yes the odds are long but it does happen. Then the chances of any form of life appearing on a planet are like getting the 6th number. However the chances of that life then evolving to a point where were are intelligent enough to realise that fact are like getting that 7th number.
Also note the fact that literally millions of different forms of life have inhabited the earth over it's £3.5b years of existence and none have evolved to the stage we have, heck the dinosaurs had 160 million years to get it right but you didn't see them evolve to a point where they were flinging spaceships to the moon (or maybe they did and all buggered off somewhere else
)By comparison humans have only been around for about 200,000 years, a blink of an eye in comparison and yet in that time we have gone from sitting around in caves, going urrgggh to a point where I am sat in front of a computer, arguing about my existence on something called the internet. Now I am not suggesting that this was due to divine influence but even from a purely scientific standpoint, humans ARE pretty special.
Guvernator said:
....heck the dinosaurs had 160 million years to get it right but you didn't see them evolve to a point where they were flinging spaceships to the moon (or maybe they did and all buggered off somewhere else )
Perhaps because they didn't have to. Evolution doesn't have some grand purpose to make organisms more and more 'advanced'. It's only goal, if it has one at all is for the organism to survive long enough to reproduce.)For our ancestors - evolving larger brains meant a greater chance of survival. All our technology and civilisation are simply a by product of that necessity.
The dinosaurs didn't evolve brains like our - because they were subject to different selective pressures and therefore likely didn't have to in order to survive.
Moonhawk said:
Perhaps because they didn't have to. Evolution doesn't have some grand purpose to make organisms more and more 'advanced'. It's only goal, if it has one at all is for the organism to survive long enough to reproduce.
For our ancestors - evolving larger brains meant a greater chance of survival. All our technology and civilisation are simply a by product of that necessity.
The dinosaurs didn't evolve brains like our - because they were subject to different selective pressures and therefore likely didn't have to in order to survive.
Perhaps that is correct. As you say Evolution is not sentient, however that still doesn't negate the fact that of all the millions of species on earth, humans have evolved in a way that is markedly different. Are you saying that from all those millions, ours was the only one that would have benefited from being smarter as a survival tool? Why are we the ONLY species to develop in this way? Why have other smart creatures like chimps or whales not gone that extra step or taken that final leap, or any other creature in Earths very long history for that matter?For our ancestors - evolving larger brains meant a greater chance of survival. All our technology and civilisation are simply a by product of that necessity.
The dinosaurs didn't evolve brains like our - because they were subject to different selective pressures and therefore likely didn't have to in order to survive.
It could all be pure luck, we just happened to be the first to get there which possibly led to the stunting of other species but as mentioned before we've only been here a very short time, not enough time to have such a massive influence I feel.
My favourite theory is that we were interfered with in some way, i.e. the Aliens did it
Guvernator said:
Moonhawk said:
Perhaps because they didn't have to. Evolution doesn't have some grand purpose to make organisms more and more 'advanced'. It's only goal, if it has one at all is for the organism to survive long enough to reproduce.
For our ancestors - evolving larger brains meant a greater chance of survival. All our technology and civilisation are simply a by product of that necessity.
The dinosaurs didn't evolve brains like our - because they were subject to different selective pressures and therefore likely didn't have to in order to survive.
Perhaps that is correct. As you say Evolution is not sentient, however that still doesn't negate the fact that of all the millions of species on earth, humans have evolved in a way that is markedly different. Are you saying that from all those millions, ours was the only one that would have benefited from being smarter as a survival tool? Why are we the ONLY species to develop in this way? Why have other smart creatures like chimps or whales not gone that extra step or taken that final leap, or any other creature in Earths very long history for that matter?For our ancestors - evolving larger brains meant a greater chance of survival. All our technology and civilisation are simply a by product of that necessity.
The dinosaurs didn't evolve brains like our - because they were subject to different selective pressures and therefore likely didn't have to in order to survive.
It could all be pure luck, we just happened to be the first to get there which possibly led to the stunting of other species but as mentioned before we've only been here a very short time, not enough time to have such a massive influence I feel.
My favourite theory is that we were interfered with in some way, i.e. the Aliens did it
Efbe said:
Guvernator, how do you know none have evolved like we have?
We are still talking about Earth exclusively right? If so, because there is nothing else around as developed as we are unless I've missed something and dolphins are in fact cleverer than us or something. Yes it is possible that other life as intelligent as us did live on earth and where somehow wiped out, however we have found zero trace of such when we've managed to find traces of almost everything else so I don't think that's very likely.If we are talking on other planets yes it is very likely that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe but I still suspect it's a pretty rare event which makes all such life pretty special (again not in the biblical sense)
Guvernator said:
Efbe said:
Guvernator, how do you know none have evolved like we have?
We are still talking about Earth exclusively right? If so, because there is nothing else around as developed as we are unless I've missed something and dolphins are in fact cleverer than us or something. Yes it is possible that other life as intelligent as us did live on earth and where somehow wiped out, however we have found zero trace of such when we've managed to find traces of almost everything else so I don't think that's very likely.If we are talking on other planets yes it is very likely that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe but I still suspect it's a pretty rare event which makes all such life pretty special (again not in the biblical sense)
as I find so often with science, we tend to completely overestimate our significance in the universe. As a species we have existed for an minute small period, of a small corner of a small universe.
We think we have discovered only a tiny fraction of fossilised species on this planet, but we have no real idea. pretty much anything could have happened before, a different branch of homo erectus, sea people (thanks cartman) evolving into civilisations. if we were wiped out today, in relation to the lifespan of the earth, evidence of our existence wouldn't last all that long at all.
As it happens, this is on the BBC site
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-2983...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-2983...
BBC said:
There's been much debate about why animals took so long to evolve and thrive on Earth.
Now scientists say it was due to incredibly low levels of oxygen on Earth more than a billion years ago.
A team determined the chemical composition of ancient rocks to find there was about 0.1% of the oxygen levels present compared with today.
Now scientists say it was due to incredibly low levels of oxygen on Earth more than a billion years ago.
A team determined the chemical composition of ancient rocks to find there was about 0.1% of the oxygen levels present compared with today.
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