How to increase the fuel amount to the mix in a Griff 500?
Discussion
Hi, I've sent my Griffith 500 to make a full check of the electrics, everything is ok.
The Griffith has a few malfunctions, maybe you've red my previous (desperate) threads, the worst of all are that the engine does not rev happily above 3.500/4.000 RPM and it pops strongly when you leave the right foot alone...
My garaje buddy says the CO2 reads below 1 and it should be above that figure hence on his opinión the engine lacks fuel, the mix is too lean and that he doesn't know how to increase the fuel rate into the mix because he hasn't any spec of my CUX box, I told him that it would be enough to change the chip for another one with a higher rate of fuel delivery (I have a tornado mapped by Mark Adams in my CUX box)...He said that that is not the way...
It's 18 years I have this very same Griffith, I've always thought that changing the chip would regulate the fuel supply...!!!
The Griffith has a few malfunctions, maybe you've red my previous (desperate) threads, the worst of all are that the engine does not rev happily above 3.500/4.000 RPM and it pops strongly when you leave the right foot alone...
My garaje buddy says the CO2 reads below 1 and it should be above that figure hence on his opinión the engine lacks fuel, the mix is too lean and that he doesn't know how to increase the fuel rate into the mix because he hasn't any spec of my CUX box, I told him that it would be enough to change the chip for another one with a higher rate of fuel delivery (I have a tornado mapped by Mark Adams in my CUX box)...He said that that is not the way...
It's 18 years I have this very same Griffith, I've always thought that changing the chip would regulate the fuel supply...!!!
FlipFlopGriff said:
Suggest you get it set up (idle, AFM, Throttle pot, timing etc) and if not mapped then it probably needs to be. Any issues you then have can be tackled.
What was it like before the chip?
FFG
The chip was tuned by Mark Adams to complement other mods: decatted sport exchaust, larger AM, triple carbón Intake...What was it like before the chip?
FFG
panic said:
Hi, I've sent my Griffith 500 to make a full check of the electrics, everything is ok.
The Griffith has a few malfunctions, maybe you've red my previous (desperate) threads, the worst of all are that the engine does not rev happily above 3.500/4.000 RPM and it pops strongly when you leave the right foot alone...
My garaje buddy says the CO2 reads below 1 and it should be above that figure hence on his opinión the engine lacks fuel, the mix is too lean and that he doesn't know how to increase the fuel rate into the mix because he hasn't any spec of my CUX box, I told him that it would be enough to change the chip for another one with a higher rate of fuel delivery (I have a tornado mapped by Mark Adams in my CUX box)...He said that that is not the way...
It's 18 years I have this very same Griffith, I've always thought that changing the chip would regulate the fuel supply...!!!
Don't PANIC panic. Put your original 500 chip back in, should be an easy enough job (I have changed chips several times now whilst trialling different maps). Have you done any other mods other than the tornado chip? If not take it out and place the original back in. StevSprint and Blitzracing on here should be able to offer some guidance. If it was a precat I could have given you AFM trim voltages to set up CO/fuel air ratio, but yours has the lamda sensors which should detect and cause adjustment via the ECU of CO trim. Hope that is of help? Regards, PeteThe Griffith has a few malfunctions, maybe you've red my previous (desperate) threads, the worst of all are that the engine does not rev happily above 3.500/4.000 RPM and it pops strongly when you leave the right foot alone...
My garaje buddy says the CO2 reads below 1 and it should be above that figure hence on his opinión the engine lacks fuel, the mix is too lean and that he doesn't know how to increase the fuel rate into the mix because he hasn't any spec of my CUX box, I told him that it would be enough to change the chip for another one with a higher rate of fuel delivery (I have a tornado mapped by Mark Adams in my CUX box)...He said that that is not the way...
It's 18 years I have this very same Griffith, I've always thought that changing the chip would regulate the fuel supply...!!!
PeteGriff said:
Don't PANIC panic. Put your original 500 chip back in, should be an easy enough job (I have changed chips several times now whilst trialling different maps). Have you done any other mods other than the tornado chip? If not take it out and place the original back in. StevSprint and Blitzracing on here should be able to offer some guidance. If it was a precat I could have given you AFM trim voltages to set up CO/fuel air ratio, but yours has the lamda sensors which should detect and cause adjustment via the ECU of CO trim. Hope that is of help? Regards, Pete
The mods as I said in my previous post were decat exhaust, triple ACT carbón intake, larger AM...the chip was tuned to match these mods.There is no lambda sensor anymore, I've made a connect to bypass them...
So the questions is, could I adjust the mix fuel/air through the chipping?
panic said:
The mods as I said in my previous post were decat exhaust, triple ACT carbón intake, larger AM...the chip was tuned to match these mods.
There is no lambda sensor anymore, I've made a connect to bypass them...
So the questions is, could I adjust the mix fuel/air through the chipping?
I would defer to SteveSprint and Blitz, but on the 14CUX the fuelling is controlled by the chip fuel maps, it would need connection via a laptop with something like Rover Gauge to see whats going on. It could also be a sensor - fuel temp, water temp, etc. Regards, PeteThere is no lambda sensor anymore, I've made a connect to bypass them...
So the questions is, could I adjust the mix fuel/air through the chipping?
Challenger C4s said:
Just a suggestion, but have you checked the fuel pressure. a drop in pressure would greatly affect higher rpm rather than tick over. Have you had the fuel filter changed recently.
Good luck with it.
I've taken back the Griffith from the garage with the same probs, they said the electric system is ok (well, and that alone is a great step forward...), on my opinion the garage guy is right, there isn't enough fuel getting to the engine, it does barely gets to 4K rpm but at idle and up to about 3K rpm it goes like on silk, the engine pops like mad at higher revs, even standing with neutral gear pressing the right pedal up to 4/5K rpms it pops plenty and...if you keep going as fast as possible in any gear the car just dies...leave it alone 5 secs and it'll restart.Good luck with it.
Fuel filter in the tank was cleaned a few years ago, I remember having problems then, it was cleaned and all the gremlins disappeared, the filter near the fuel pump is clean.
I'll order a new tornado chip from Mark Adams, do you think a chip can fall in disgrace after a few years, getting old and cracked?
Maybe the best solution would be to place a nice carb on he engine and say bye bye to the whole electronic s
t...Fuel pressure is ok, around 3/3.20...
Edited by panic on Friday 24th October 20:27
panic said:
So the questions is, could I adjust the mix fuel/air through the chipping?
Yes, the 14CUX can be remapped and if you are interested you may find these instructions www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux helpful but I should warn you its not very straightforward. Only Mark Adams can remap your Tornado chip as it's encrypted via his scrambler board plus he is the best man for the job.panic said:
There is no lambda sensor anymore, I've made a connect to bypass them...
Please can you explain how you by passed the lambda sensors as you may be causing the ECU to run on the limp home map that would run lean, therefore you should first check you have no fault codes. If you want to run without lambda control you should really switch to running the non cat map with a green tune resistor but you'll first have to check with MA if he's setup the non cat map in your chip. If you have a green tune resistor you could also check with RoverGauge.
As your not the 1st 500 owner who wants to run without Lambda control I've already started building a tune based on Land Rovers final software, with improved idle control, to allow standard 500's to run with or without lambda control. As the standard map may not suit your modifications I suggest you contact Mark Adams to investigate your options.
Best Wishes, Steve Sprint
Edited by stevesprint on Saturday 25th October 22:49
Is your engine running lean across the rev range, or does it only become lean above 3.5/4k rpm?
Could you borrow a known good ECU and put your own chip in it? Then you could get your mechanic to check the air/fuel ratio to see if there is any difference.
My Griff 500 used to rev OK up to about 3k rpm and then felt as though I'd lifted off the throttle before the revs continued rising again. A lot of investigation eventually enabled me to determine that there was a fault in the ECU itself in the part of the circuit that deals with the throttle pot, a replacement ECU solved the problem for me.
Could you borrow a known good ECU and put your own chip in it? Then you could get your mechanic to check the air/fuel ratio to see if there is any difference.
My Griff 500 used to rev OK up to about 3k rpm and then felt as though I'd lifted off the throttle before the revs continued rising again. A lot of investigation eventually enabled me to determine that there was a fault in the ECU itself in the part of the circuit that deals with the throttle pot, a replacement ECU solved the problem for me.
Hi,
had the same problems with my Griffith 500 with triple act plenum, bigger afm, cam, tornado chip etc. The ECU cannot support the correct amount of petrol needed to the revs and the load in different circumstances(my car was lean above 4000 revs, too much petrol in the range fom 1000 to 3500 revs with the tornado chip). My car is eqipped with lambda sensors. After a lot of try and error the only solution was a remapping specially for my car with the modified parts.
It was a three hour drive with testing and changing the maps in all situations in which the car drove bad. Now the car drives very smooth in town and after changing the fuel pump for a Bosch to get more petrol at high revs the car also drives very good and powerful on the end of the rev-range.
had the same problems with my Griffith 500 with triple act plenum, bigger afm, cam, tornado chip etc. The ECU cannot support the correct amount of petrol needed to the revs and the load in different circumstances(my car was lean above 4000 revs, too much petrol in the range fom 1000 to 3500 revs with the tornado chip). My car is eqipped with lambda sensors. After a lot of try and error the only solution was a remapping specially for my car with the modified parts.
It was a three hour drive with testing and changing the maps in all situations in which the car drove bad. Now the car drives very smooth in town and after changing the fuel pump for a Bosch to get more petrol at high revs the car also drives very good and powerful on the end of the rev-range.
You have a lot of unknowns here- the first is the fuel pressure- you need to measure this with the engine under full load when the demand on the pump is at its highest. You cant rely on measurement at tick over, as this wont show up if the fuel supply is restricted under load. The symptoms you describe sound like pump delivery or restricted fuel supply if its that bad. One question though- is this a new set up that does not work, or has it been running OK, and now gone wrong? It it has worked in the past you cant blame the fuel map chip.
The things that have a major affect the mixture are:
Fuel pressure.
AFM output voltage
Fuel map
Injector peak flow rate.
As Steve Sprint says you cant simply by pass the lambda probes, they are critical to get the map correct. Even if you switch to the non catalysts fuel map to by pass the Lambda probes, do you even know if the non catalyst fuel map is correct for your engine set up? It could be bog standard LandRover- you would need to check this with Mark Adams.
The things that have a major affect the mixture are:
Fuel pressure.
AFM output voltage
Fuel map
Injector peak flow rate.
As Steve Sprint says you cant simply by pass the lambda probes, they are critical to get the map correct. Even if you switch to the non catalysts fuel map to by pass the Lambda probes, do you even know if the non catalyst fuel map is correct for your engine set up? It could be bog standard LandRover- you would need to check this with Mark Adams.
blitzracing said:
You have a lot of unknowns here- the first is the fuel pressure- you need to measure this with the engine under full load when the demand on the pump is at its highest. You cant rely on measurement at tick over, as this wont show up if the fuel supply is restricted under load. The symptoms you describe sound like pump delivery or restricted fuel supply if its that bad. One question though- is this a new set up that does not work, or has it been running OK, and now gone wrong? It it has worked in the past you cant blame the fuel map chip.
The things that have a major affect the mixture are:
Fuel pressure.
AFM output voltage
Fuel map
Injector peak flow rate.
As Steve Sprint says you cant simply by pass the lambda probes, they are critical to get the map correct. Even if you switch to the non catalysts fuel map to by pass the Lambda probes, do you even know if the non catalyst fuel map is correct for your engine set up? It could be bog standard LandRover- you would need to check this with Mark Adams.
Thanks for your comments, here are a few answers:The things that have a major affect the mixture are:
Fuel pressure.
AFM output voltage
Fuel map
Injector peak flow rate.
As Steve Sprint says you cant simply by pass the lambda probes, they are critical to get the map correct. Even if you switch to the non catalysts fuel map to by pass the Lambda probes, do you even know if the non catalyst fuel map is correct for your engine set up? It could be bog standard LandRover- you would need to check this with Mark Adams.
1) Yes, the set up has been working well for some time, the fuel map chip has been originally tuned by Mark Adams for this specific set up.
2) AFM, the black plastic 20AM Bosch has already given me problems a few years ago, the one I have is the second I change, it could be this the origin of all these malfunctions?
3) Fuel pressure, the garage buddy told me the pressure is enough but I have to ask if he tested the pressure at high load or only at idle...
Could it be the tank fuel filter that might be obstructed?
Thanks.
the 20am is a lucas / sagem unit not bosch .. theyre cheap secondhand if you want to buy one for a test. The bosch AFM isn't the same but you could maybe still buy a used one cheap as a test?
Has the fuel pressure been measured under load when the prolem is there? Sounds like a fuel starvation issue under load from some of your description
Has the fuel pressure been measured under load when the prolem is there? Sounds like a fuel starvation issue under load from some of your description
There are two AFMs, one is the Lucas / Sagem 20AM its about 20 to 25 cm long- this is a pretty tough reliable unit, and the other is the Bosch unit thats much smaller. Ive not seen enough of the Bosch unit to know how reliable it is, but there are lots of pattern ones out there that look identical, and dont last very well, so you need to check if the AFM is badged as Bosch or just blank. A low AFM output would cause major fueling issues, but you still have too many unknowns here as you dont have any diagnostics. The ECU may well be in error mode and you would never know. The cheapest is RoverGauge software and a USB cable that will tell you all you need to know, with a laptop, or there is the Steve heath ECUmate that is a stand alone unit, that will give you basic sensor data and fault codes.
I can supply a RoverGauge cable if you want one with the software and documentation for £40 outside the UK, or you will find the ECUmate if you Google it.
I can supply a RoverGauge cable if you want one with the software and documentation for £40 outside the UK, or you will find the ECUmate if you Google it.
spitfire4v8 said:
the 20am is a lucas / sagem unit not bosch .. theyre cheap secondhand if you want to buy one for a test. The bosch AFM isn't the same but you could maybe still buy a used one cheap as a test?
Has the fuel pressure been measured under load when the prolem is there? Sounds like a fuel starvation issue under load from some of your description
Yes, you're right, sorry.Has the fuel pressure been measured under load when the prolem is there? Sounds like a fuel starvation issue under load from some of your description
Here are two pics of my AFM..
Where could I buy new this same Lucas hardware?
You cant get then new any more, and the cheap ones are Chinese copies, so not recommend. I think they where used on the P38 Range Rovers, if you ask a Range Rover Breaker, they are available second hand. You are making a big assumption that its the AFM however if the problem only occurs at higher rpm. Id think a blown AFM would affect the running at all speeds.
I think you need custom / tailored mapping for yr car, i had the wrong basic mapping chip with my car with the ACT Twin plenum set and had my car tailored mapped again which totally transformed my car!
The Black plastic Bosch 4.6V8 Range Rover AFM (euro 175) i have with my ACT Twin plenum set(standard injectors, 3bar fuelpressure reg with cats). They are good although last year my AFM broke down at speed (130km) in a tunnel!
It was like hitting the rev limiter and the car shut down. Later i found out with the AA the AFM was kaput, the ECU went into limp home mode, overfueling badly and not driveable above 2000rpm. I had a spare AFM so sorted quickly.
The Black plastic Bosch 4.6V8 Range Rover AFM (euro 175) i have with my ACT Twin plenum set(standard injectors, 3bar fuelpressure reg with cats). They are good although last year my AFM broke down at speed (130km) in a tunnel!
It was like hitting the rev limiter and the car shut down. Later i found out with the AA the AFM was kaput, the ECU went into limp home mode, overfueling badly and not driveable above 2000rpm. I had a spare AFM so sorted quickly.
Edited by MischaV8 on Monday 27th October 22:04
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