Marussia to miss Austin GP
Discussion
Crafty_ said:
Wow - That's both teams finished then - no show in the US nor Brazil. What a sorry state of affairs for F1. Really surprised that Marussia aren't going. Alex Rossi (USA) is their reserve driver. Regardless of the situation I think most would have supported the team and the opportunity to run an American in the US GP.
I guess Marussia must be in a catastrophic financial position not to go.
The problem with Marussia is that the whole set up is weird. Marussia was meant to be a Russian supercar company, hence the F1 team branding. The owners decided that a supercar company wasn't such a good idea after all and canned the project. Ownership ofthe team was transferred to Marussia Communications, registered in Ireland but apparently owned by the Russians.
Marussia Communications just appear to be a shelf company, no website, can't really find out much about them.
So its been hanging by a thread for some time. Why keep it going ? why not just sell the entry ? There is no benefit in having the team / slapping the name all over it.
I guess its strategic, back to back races a long away away, costs wise its not going to be cheap. Maybe they'll turn up in ABU and hope to keep their 9th place on double points.
It doesn't bode well for next year though.
Marussia Communications just appear to be a shelf company, no website, can't really find out much about them.
So its been hanging by a thread for some time. Why keep it going ? why not just sell the entry ? There is no benefit in having the team / slapping the name all over it.
I guess its strategic, back to back races a long away away, costs wise its not going to be cheap. Maybe they'll turn up in ABU and hope to keep their 9th place on double points.
It doesn't bode well for next year though.
woof said:
Wow - That's both teams finished then - no show in the US nor Brazil. What a sorry state of affairs for F1.
Really surprised that Marussia aren't going. Alex Rossi (USA) is their reserve driver. Regardless of the situation I think most would have supported the team and the opportunity to run an American in the US GP.
I guess Marussia must be in a catastrophic financial position not to go.
I suppose that the balance sheets of Lotus and Sauber are healthy either. How are these teams expected to find suitable sponsors when they cannot afford to develop their chassis? They are only able to pootle around at the back and get the odd mentioned as they get eliminated in Q1? Force India and Williams have performed well this year, but again are under-financed to play at the highest level year after year.Really surprised that Marussia aren't going. Alex Rossi (USA) is their reserve driver. Regardless of the situation I think most would have supported the team and the opportunity to run an American in the US GP.
I guess Marussia must be in a catastrophic financial position not to go.
It all goes back to the silly desire to have mega-complex engines that small teams cannot afford and the intracigence of the bigger teams to accept a sensible spending cap. Meanwhile the rights holders walk away with half the net income and the circuits struggle to break even.
rdjohn said:
I suppose that the balance sheets of Lotus and Sauber are healthy either. How are these teams expected to find suitable sponsors when they cannot afford to develop their chassis? They are only able to pootle around at the back and get the odd mentioned as they get eliminated in Q1? Force India and Williams have performed well this year, but again are under-financed to play at the highest level year after year.
It all goes back to the silly desire to have mega-complex engines that small teams cannot afford and the intracigence of the bigger teams to accept a sensible spending cap. Meanwhile the rights holders walk away with half the net income and the circuits struggle to break even.
Lotus claim to be breaking even this yearIt all goes back to the silly desire to have mega-complex engines that small teams cannot afford and the intracigence of the bigger teams to accept a sensible spending cap. Meanwhile the rights holders walk away with half the net income and the circuits struggle to break even.
Sauber - don't know but it seems they've mismanaged finances since Peter Sauber stepped down
Force India work on a small budget and are in for a big boost thanks to their WCC position this year
Williams reckon they are going to make a £20 million loss this year
The new engines were forced by manufacturers and from what I can work out aren't hugely more expensive to teams than the V8s.
Agree on the cost cap. Teams also need to take some responsibility for the money they take from tracks/media via FOM. If FOm declared they were going to cut their fees in half and do the same with the money that they give to teams there out be an outcry.
I'm a little more hopeful for Marussia. Their position is reasonably secure - unless Sauber pull something out of the hat - and so dragging the team to a pair of long haul races where they will unless something ridiculous happens end up as the last two cars on the track with 100% certainty, is a bit dumb.
They'll save a chunk of money and won't be penalised for it, which I think is reasonable. In the olden days it was common for teams to miss races; as recently as 1990 teams were allowed to discard a certain number of results in the final reckoning.
However, that both teams are struggling this badly for money is a big worry. I don't really know how it can be fixed when there's such a huge gulf between the resources available to teams like Mercedes and Ferrari and these two teams at the back.
They'll save a chunk of money and won't be penalised for it, which I think is reasonable. In the olden days it was common for teams to miss races; as recently as 1990 teams were allowed to discard a certain number of results in the final reckoning.
However, that both teams are struggling this badly for money is a big worry. I don't really know how it can be fixed when there's such a huge gulf between the resources available to teams like Mercedes and Ferrari and these two teams at the back.
Crafty_ said:
The problem with Marussia is that the whole set up is weird. Marussia was meant to be a Russian supercar company, hence the F1 team branding. The owners decided that a supercar company wasn't such a good idea after all and canned the project.
It's interesting isn't it? What's with the dealership at the Fairmont gallery in Monte Carlo? I find it all rather fascinating 
. Nice employee too when I looked.rdjohn said:
woof said:
Wow - That's both teams finished then - no show in the US nor Brazil. What a sorry state of affairs for F1.
Really surprised that Marussia aren't going. Alex Rossi (USA) is their reserve driver. Regardless of the situation I think most would have supported the team and the opportunity to run an American in the US GP.
I guess Marussia must be in a catastrophic financial position not to go.
I suppose that the balance sheets of Lotus and Sauber are healthy either. How are these teams expected to find suitable sponsors when they cannot afford to develop their chassis? They are only able to pootle around at the back and get the odd mentioned as they get eliminated in Q1? Force India and Williams have performed well this year, but again are under-financed to play at the highest level year after year.Really surprised that Marussia aren't going. Alex Rossi (USA) is their reserve driver. Regardless of the situation I think most would have supported the team and the opportunity to run an American in the US GP.
I guess Marussia must be in a catastrophic financial position not to go.
It all goes back to the silly desire to have mega-complex engines that small teams cannot afford and the intracigence of the bigger teams to accept a sensible spending cap. Meanwhile the rights holders walk away with half the net income and the circuits struggle to break even.
ash73 said:
Gosh that's a surprise, given the success they've enjoyed.
Surely they haven't factored in the cash they'll get from finishing high up in the championship? That has to be the reason why they spent to cash up front?John Booth runs a tight ship. But that doesn't mean that Marussia offers a better basis than Caterham for anyone looking to enter F1 through an existing team.
I would bet that MSV are sniffing around both though.
MartG said:
rubystone said:
I would bet that MSV are sniffing around both though.
That's a thought, but I don't think JP would be keen to sink his own money into it to the same extent as Chilton Sr.woof said:
MSV / Palmer don't have anywhere near the money or backers. They don't even have enough for a F1 test! And I'd expect even with JP being the egomaniac that he is, would still be able to realise that buying a team to run his son would be utter insanity !
Do you not think that Comma's Brasilian owners might not be interested then? Do you know how much Chily and Aon put into Max last year and this? I hear it was around £6m p.a. last year, but am not sure about the investment this year...it almost sounds like it was on a 3 race cycle!
Crafty_ said:
The new engines were forced by manufacturers and from what I can work out aren't hugely more expensive to teams than the V8s.
Patrick Head said:
He told the BBC: "I think the engines are fascinating pieces of kit, but I think they are far too expensive for what they are supposed to be doing.
"You could produce 800 BHP for €2m ($2.7m) a team each year. I think the teams are having to pay about 10 times that amount. It's a very expensive way of powering Formula One cars."
Too expensive, add nothing to the show, and sound s"You could produce 800 BHP for €2m ($2.7m) a team each year. I think the teams are having to pay about 10 times that amount. It's a very expensive way of powering Formula One cars."
t.I
This is what Andrew Benson wrote back in 2012
But the teams not directly supported by engine manufacturers have not yet been told how much the new engines will cost, and fear it will be much more than the five million euros they currently pay annually
This is what Autosport believes budgets were in 2013
Team Budget
Ferrari £250 million
Red Bull £235.5 million
McLaren £160 million
Mercedes £160 million
Lotus £130 million
Force India. £100 million
Williams £90 million
Sauber £90 million
Toro Rossa. £70 million
Caterham £65 million
Marussia £51 million
Autosport.com
Joe Saward did a piece recently on engine / transmission packages. He wrote
Talking around the paddock, it seems that Renault is the most expensive option at the moment. This make sense given that everything in France costs more than elsewhere because of the country’s employment laws and social charges (eh bah!). The price tag I hear for Renault is, ahem, $28.5 million for the engine. To this one must add the transmission (which Red Bull will do for you if you write them a cheque for $9 million) and you need to purchase the right lubricants for the engine from Total ($2 million more). Thus, without needing a pocket calculator, one can surmise that a Renault deal engine will cost you the best part of $40 million. Geez!
Ferrari seems to be the next best/worst offer with the suggestion being that you get the back end of the current prancing horse for a sniff under $30 million, when one adds in the transmission, service and yadda yadda.
Up in Brixworth, however, you can order the Menu du Jour, service included, for $24.4 million. That will include a little supplement for Petronas but from what I hear this is simply a deal to run Malaysian Jazeman Jaafar in a limited number of free practice sessions on Fridays. All in, the figure is believed to be around $26 million.
So, you want to be more competitive and spend less money? What do you choose?
Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…
Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…
Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!
So Lotus will get a competitive engine package and save $14million as well next year.
But if you are Marussia with only $81million then paying Ferarri their wedge becomes problematic and presumably was partly offset by giving JB the drive this year, hense their current problems.
The cost of turning up with 2 cars, spares and a team at 19 GPs each year will be about the same for every team, Bernie pays them $10 million to do that but you would not be surprised if it actually cost twice that amount given the number of flyaway races there are each year.
The amounts the small teams have left over for R&D, chassis development etc must be minimal, hense their fairly dismal performance, and their inability to attract decent sponsorship.
These snippets are why I believe that F1 as we currently know it is at a tipping point and about to enter a critical period where the show gets smaller, circuits can't make money and terrestrial TV and fans in general, can no longer afford it.
Bernie obviously believes the good times will role on forever as long as people like Hass and Putin keep turning up. I am not so sure.
Crafty_ said:
Lotus claim to be breaking even this year
Sauber - don't know but it seems they've mismanaged finances since Peter Sauber stepped down
Force India work on a small budget and are in for a big boost thanks to their WCC position this year
Williams reckon they are going to make a £20 million loss this year
The new engines were forced by manufacturers and from what I can work out aren't hugely more expensive to teams than the V8s.
Agree on the cost cap. Teams also need to take some responsibility for the money they take from tracks/media via FOM. If FOm declared they were going to cut their fees in half and do the same with the money that they give to teams there out be an outcry.
I am surprised that you say that the engine costs are similar to last year, and thought the increased costs to the small teams was well documented.Sauber - don't know but it seems they've mismanaged finances since Peter Sauber stepped down
Force India work on a small budget and are in for a big boost thanks to their WCC position this year
Williams reckon they are going to make a £20 million loss this year
The new engines were forced by manufacturers and from what I can work out aren't hugely more expensive to teams than the V8s.
Agree on the cost cap. Teams also need to take some responsibility for the money they take from tracks/media via FOM. If FOm declared they were going to cut their fees in half and do the same with the money that they give to teams there out be an outcry.
This is what Andrew Benson wrote back in 2012
But the teams not directly supported by engine manufacturers have not yet been told how much the new engines will cost, and fear it will be much more than the five million euros they currently pay annually
This is what Autosport believes budgets were in 2013
Team Budget
Ferrari £250 million
Red Bull £235.5 million
McLaren £160 million
Mercedes £160 million
Lotus £130 million
Force India. £100 million
Williams £90 million
Sauber £90 million
Toro Rossa. £70 million
Caterham £65 million
Marussia £51 million
Autosport.com
Joe Saward did a piece recently on engine / transmission packages. He wrote
Talking around the paddock, it seems that Renault is the most expensive option at the moment. This make sense given that everything in France costs more than elsewhere because of the country’s employment laws and social charges (eh bah!). The price tag I hear for Renault is, ahem, $28.5 million for the engine. To this one must add the transmission (which Red Bull will do for you if you write them a cheque for $9 million) and you need to purchase the right lubricants for the engine from Total ($2 million more). Thus, without needing a pocket calculator, one can surmise that a Renault deal engine will cost you the best part of $40 million. Geez!
Ferrari seems to be the next best/worst offer with the suggestion being that you get the back end of the current prancing horse for a sniff under $30 million, when one adds in the transmission, service and yadda yadda.
Up in Brixworth, however, you can order the Menu du Jour, service included, for $24.4 million. That will include a little supplement for Petronas but from what I hear this is simply a deal to run Malaysian Jazeman Jaafar in a limited number of free practice sessions on Fridays. All in, the figure is believed to be around $26 million.
So, you want to be more competitive and spend less money? What do you choose?
Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…
Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…
Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!
So Lotus will get a competitive engine package and save $14million as well next year.
But if you are Marussia with only $81million then paying Ferarri their wedge becomes problematic and presumably was partly offset by giving JB the drive this year, hense their current problems.
The cost of turning up with 2 cars, spares and a team at 19 GPs each year will be about the same for every team, Bernie pays them $10 million to do that but you would not be surprised if it actually cost twice that amount given the number of flyaway races there are each year.
The amounts the small teams have left over for R&D, chassis development etc must be minimal, hense their fairly dismal performance, and their inability to attract decent sponsorship.
These snippets are why I believe that F1 as we currently know it is at a tipping point and about to enter a critical period where the show gets smaller, circuits can't make money and terrestrial TV and fans in general, can no longer afford it.
Bernie obviously believes the good times will role on forever as long as people like Hass and Putin keep turning up. I am not so sure.
RYH64E said:
Too expensive, add nothing to the show, and sound st.
Oh for ft.ks sake man stop acting like a petulant 3 year old.The engine are adding to the show this year, if you can't see that then clearly you don't really understand the technology on the cars at all.
I think they sound pretty good actually, not like a V10 at 20,000rpm, but then only a moron would expect them to sound like that. There is an awful lot more to their sound than just a high pitched wailing.
And yes the engines are very expensive, but who is paying for them ? the manufacturers and the teams, who voted to bring these engines in to the sport. Some times turkeys do vote for christmas.
I'll ask again the question that you refuse to answer - if F1 is so horribly s
t and you hate the engines, the tracks, Bernie, the teams, the drivers why the fk do you keep watching it and spending your time pissing and moaning ? turn it off, go for a walk or something.rdjohn said:
I am surprised that you say that the engine costs are similar to last year, and thought the increased costs to the small teams was well documented.
What I meant was that although we are talking about large sums of money as the figures you posted show I haven't seen how much more this years engines are costing over last years.PW said:
People pointing out that the whole set up is another example of shady financial deals going on that plague Caterham, Lotus at the end of last season, and many other teams in F1's history.
You "need" that?
It's funny how people are so selfish that they'll excuse this behaviour, and all the other shady and unfair aspects of F1 just so they can watch F1 on Sunday afternoon, and then complain the engines sound st 
To be honest, if business probity and honest dealing were part of the criteria for being eligible to run a team in F1, the grid would be empty.You "need" that?
It's funny how people are so selfish that they'll excuse this behaviour, and all the other shady and unfair aspects of F1 just so they can watch F1 on Sunday afternoon, and then complain the engines sound s
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