Idea for a new law in Rugby Union
Discussion
I've just spent an hour and a half filming my side's defeat today. It doesn't normally put me in a bad mood, there have been enough, too many, such days over the years. However, today the game was an effort to watch. What could have been a thoroughly riveting match was ruined by an inept referee.
I am normally, and remain, a supporter of referees and will confront those who are abusive towards them. If they do their best and are fair, then you've got to run with it, in fact thank them for taking the trouble to take part. But today was a bit different.
The ref had, it seems, never been in a scrum. He seemed to have no idea what was going on.
The opposing side took the mickey. No problem there, if the ref lets you get away with it then go ahead. But this was blatant. We kept getting penalty after penalty awarded against us because the opposing side went backwards, pushed upward and collapsed. I feel certain that the referee wasn't cheating and honestly believed that our front row were doing something wrong, but that makes things worse in a way.
My suggestion for a new law if that no one should be allowed to become a referee until they have spent at least two seasons in the front two rows.
To make matters more bizarre, I've just watched the video and as their blind side prop collapsed the scrum our flanker, not wanting two big players to fall on him, stepped away and backwards. He got penalised for not binding. They got 3 points for that gem.
They say what goes around comes around, but that's not the point. The ref had, apparently, no idea what goes on in a scrum. The match was ruined.
And that's not to mention the forward pass to a player a stride and a half in front of the passing player, so I won't mention that. Or would not have done had the video not shown he was looking directly at the player. I thought first of all that the angle had confused me but on the video I can see that the angle made the offence look less obvious. The ref wasn't in the perfect position (in the changing room?) but had an excellent view.
He awarded an offside against one of our backs. It is fair to say he was offside, so no problem there. In fact three of them were, but only by half a step. The video is clear enough, they were right in line with me. What is wrong though is that the ref was facing the other way - otherwise the players would have ensured they were onside. Refs can't give a penalty when they are unsighted.
The touch judges didn't signal by the way. He gave the penalty without looking at them. The only thing he saw was the tackle.
But let's not mention that. Let's just have refs who know about scrums.
Referees deserve support for what they do. However, there must be some fault in the training or assessing. They should either know what to look out for or else should be told. The video could be used in lessons.
Just to make it clear, we did not deserve to win. We played well below our best and even with the lack of supply from the scrum, we should have done better.
I am normally, and remain, a supporter of referees and will confront those who are abusive towards them. If they do their best and are fair, then you've got to run with it, in fact thank them for taking the trouble to take part. But today was a bit different.
The ref had, it seems, never been in a scrum. He seemed to have no idea what was going on.
The opposing side took the mickey. No problem there, if the ref lets you get away with it then go ahead. But this was blatant. We kept getting penalty after penalty awarded against us because the opposing side went backwards, pushed upward and collapsed. I feel certain that the referee wasn't cheating and honestly believed that our front row were doing something wrong, but that makes things worse in a way.
My suggestion for a new law if that no one should be allowed to become a referee until they have spent at least two seasons in the front two rows.
To make matters more bizarre, I've just watched the video and as their blind side prop collapsed the scrum our flanker, not wanting two big players to fall on him, stepped away and backwards. He got penalised for not binding. They got 3 points for that gem.
They say what goes around comes around, but that's not the point. The ref had, apparently, no idea what goes on in a scrum. The match was ruined.
And that's not to mention the forward pass to a player a stride and a half in front of the passing player, so I won't mention that. Or would not have done had the video not shown he was looking directly at the player. I thought first of all that the angle had confused me but on the video I can see that the angle made the offence look less obvious. The ref wasn't in the perfect position (in the changing room?) but had an excellent view.
He awarded an offside against one of our backs. It is fair to say he was offside, so no problem there. In fact three of them were, but only by half a step. The video is clear enough, they were right in line with me. What is wrong though is that the ref was facing the other way - otherwise the players would have ensured they were onside. Refs can't give a penalty when they are unsighted.
The touch judges didn't signal by the way. He gave the penalty without looking at them. The only thing he saw was the tackle.
But let's not mention that. Let's just have refs who know about scrums.
Referees deserve support for what they do. However, there must be some fault in the training or assessing. They should either know what to look out for or else should be told. The video could be used in lessons.
Just to make it clear, we did not deserve to win. We played well below our best and even with the lack of supply from the scrum, we should have done better.
There's enough of an issue with refs wanting to take up the game as it is without forcing them to have to play in different positions. While I appreciate your frustration I don't think it's the right answer
If its as you say it is then its naivety on the part of the side that you video. They should have woken up to the fact that the penalties weren;t going the right way for them so should have changed how they scrummaged. Think back to Jason Leonard in the world cup final in 03. He came on and pretty much won the game by getting the ref onside and stopping the contest in the scrum
Edit to say, If I remember correctly from your other posts its a semi decent level? There should be proper feedback systems in place so get the video to the ref and his assessors for feedback
If its as you say it is then its naivety on the part of the side that you video. They should have woken up to the fact that the penalties weren;t going the right way for them so should have changed how they scrummaged. Think back to Jason Leonard in the world cup final in 03. He came on and pretty much won the game by getting the ref onside and stopping the contest in the scrum
Edit to say, If I remember correctly from your other posts its a semi decent level? There should be proper feedback systems in place so get the video to the ref and his assessors for feedback
Edited by hajaba123 on Saturday 25th October 20:07
hajaba123 said:
There's enough of an issue with refs wanting to take up the game as it is without forcing them to have to play in different positions. While I appreciate your frustration I don't think it's the right answer
If its as you say it is then its naivety on the part of the side that you video. They should have woken up to the fact that the penalties weren;t going the right way for them so should have changed how they scrummaged. Think back to Jason Leonard in the world cup final in 03. He came on and pretty much won the game by getting the ref onside and stopping the contest in the scrum
Edit to say, If I remember correctly from your other posts its a semi decent level? There should be proper feedback systems in place so get the video to the ref and his assessors for feedback
Level 6.If its as you say it is then its naivety on the part of the side that you video. They should have woken up to the fact that the penalties weren;t going the right way for them so should have changed how they scrummaged. Think back to Jason Leonard in the world cup final in 03. He came on and pretty much won the game by getting the ref onside and stopping the contest in the scrum
Edit to say, If I remember correctly from your other posts its a semi decent level? There should be proper feedback systems in place so get the video to the ref and his assessors for feedback
Edited by hajaba123 on Saturday 25th October 20:07
There was no assessor for the match.
The crowd was becoming irritated at the decisions, that's both lots as he was not being partial. That can't help recruitment.
We have a young front row. When our captain tried to tell the ref what was going on he was waved away. At the third penalty against us for their prop pushing upwards he went up to the ref, started talking and they got 10m, which put them in range despite their kicker being pretty poor. There went three points.
We were forced to put in an older prop to sort things out the 'old way' and then the ref wondered why a match being played in a good spirit in the main began to deteriorate into squabbles. Mind you, they stopped pushing upwards for a while. But that's not what I want to see nor the players play.
If you were a ref and one side had given away a few penalties (even if you were not sure what for) if a prop was substituted, wouldn't you keep a close eye on him for a few scrums?
Everyone complains about the scrums. There are health and safety aspects which have to be considered but the main problem for refs is the lack of appreciation of what goes on between the two tight 5s. Once the players realise they can get away with cheating they will cheat. So refs should be aware of what is happening.
Anyone can police a wonky lineout or an offside as this can be shown on diagrams - we've all seen them - or on video. But front rows are a different matter.
I once added up the time taken up by scrum resets in a match, this at the beginning of a season following firm RFU directives for scrums. One player said that in most seasons he has problems with match fitness but that one, with the long stoppages for scrums, he strolled through. This is a problem in many matches. I would not say all as there is a difference. In some matches we have fewer resets. We need to find out why, but my belief is the way the ref controls them.
You suggest our team are naive and to a great extent I agree although I'd like to suggest that our coach wants the team to play within the laws. But the pressure is on him. If he doesn't get results with a talented team then his position is on the line. We are supposed to be after promotion this season but we are mid table. I assume he is ambitious so what's he going to do? Tell our front row that they must only push directly against the other and not twist, push sideways, upwards, collapse the scrum and moan at the ref when in kicking range? The odds are against it so we'll end up with more resets and more moaning from the players and spectators.
One other point: I don't want to go on about the old days, but there were three collapses yesterday that were, to my eyes, a bit on the dangerous side. A few years ago the tight five would expect this and be prepared. We still got nasty injuries, but when you considered the potential there, the figures were remarkably low.
Nowadays the collapses, at least at our level, and the level above, seem much more dramatic and quite dangerous. I've seen second rows being pulled off their feet and being twisted sideways. That's not good for your neck. Refs need to police them and to do that they need to know what is going on.
There were complaints from the crowd yesterday about the risk of losing scrums as we know it. The other side had had seven resets for one scrum in one match this season. In another the ref blew up at random and awarded free kicks and penalties if it didn't run first time. So if one side was near the 22, a random collapse often got points.
We didn't deserve to win yesterday. The other side's front row were too good. If they'd played to the laws, they'd still have beaten us. But a fast, open match with scrums which turn into exciting contests is the only way to attract more spectators, to have more money over the bar and keep the club solvent.
One local club that used to play in the National Leagues a few years ago and was the lead county side has just lost its first IV. That, I think, is a hefty fine and a drop of two leagues. That's not going to help their finances.
Clubs need to provide entertaining rugby.
Just to clarify: I'm sure the ref did his best and I'm grateful. His problem is a lack of appreciation of what was happening. It was a bit blatant yesterday. Once he understands what's going on - and he needs to listen to captains and not wave them away - then he'll be much better. However, the policing of scrums has been dreadful over the last two season. The fault lies with the RFU. They need to have clear laws and fully informed refs. We want scrums that are great to play in and fun to watch. That's not to mention being an effective way of recycling the ball of course. We should get the ball to the backs on occasion.
Rugby has laws, its not chavball! ;-)
I do get where you're coming from, scrums are a shambles worldwide and at every level. I get bored watching games,so feel sorry fr crowds who have to watch rubbish.
Having played for the last 20 years from grassroots to level 5 I've never come across a biased ref, I've come across good, bad, slow, too picky, not picky enough, those that have lost their heads and those that have lost control in games: that's where it gets really dangerous and the players can smell the fear!
I understand your frustration, it sounds to me from your description that the ref felt vulnerable, chasing away captains talking can be a symptom of that. When captaining I always found it best to talk to the ref about things that happened a few phases back rather than immediately after a decision. ie while jogging over to a lineout 'excuse me sir, their tighthead looked a bit guilty at that last scrum, what do you think he was up to?' . While taking a kick ' ref, am I ok to tell my guys that they can have a few more seconds to play the ball on the floor like at that ruck a few minutes ago?'
Anyway, what do I know, onwards and upwards, get the guys to learn for next week!
I do get where you're coming from, scrums are a shambles worldwide and at every level. I get bored watching games,so feel sorry fr crowds who have to watch rubbish.
Having played for the last 20 years from grassroots to level 5 I've never come across a biased ref, I've come across good, bad, slow, too picky, not picky enough, those that have lost their heads and those that have lost control in games: that's where it gets really dangerous and the players can smell the fear!
I understand your frustration, it sounds to me from your description that the ref felt vulnerable, chasing away captains talking can be a symptom of that. When captaining I always found it best to talk to the ref about things that happened a few phases back rather than immediately after a decision. ie while jogging over to a lineout 'excuse me sir, their tighthead looked a bit guilty at that last scrum, what do you think he was up to?' . While taking a kick ' ref, am I ok to tell my guys that they can have a few more seconds to play the ball on the floor like at that ruck a few minutes ago?'
Anyway, what do I know, onwards and upwards, get the guys to learn for next week!
hajaba123 said:
I understand your frustration, it sounds to me from your description that the ref felt vulnerable, chasing away captains talking can be a symptom of that. When captaining I always found it best to talk to the ref about things that happened a few phases back rather than immediately after a decision. ie while jogging over to a lineout 'excuse me sir, their tighthead looked a bit guilty at that last scrum, what do you think he was up to?' . While taking a kick ' ref, am I ok to tell my guys that they can have a few more seconds to play the ball on the floor like at that ruck a few minutes ago?'
Anyway, what do I know, onwards and upwards, get the guys to learn for next week!
Love your subtlety with the comments. Not happy about your 'upwards' given the behaviour of the prop.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/9.gifAnyway, what do I know, onwards and upwards, get the guys to learn for next week!
After the third offence by the opposition tight head the captain, who had pointed out one of the previous ones, went up to the ref after the penalty was awarded against us and said that he had done it again, and within 5 mins. The ref did not answer and waved him away, saying that he did not want to hear anything about it again.
The ref then took the tight head's side and there was one perfectly legal scrum. The tight head then, at the next one, pushed sideways, he was about 435 deg to the scrum right at the beginning. The scrum collapsed, as you can imagine, none of our lot expecting it and he ref gave a penalty against our flanker for not binding as he stepped away from the collapse.
The captain then went up to the ref to point out the push, was waved away and conceded 10m.
Not sure what he can do next time.
Something I didn't realise until today, the ref told the touch judges only to judge touch and to keep their thoughts to themselves unless asked. 'Our' supplied TJ left the pitch at 30mins because of the ref. I have no idea if there was a specific incident but earlier on he had stood under a free kick as it crossed the line, some 40m from the ref and about 25 upfield. The TJ stood with his flag raised and the ref moved position about a meter further up. Our lads lined up with the flag and then were waved towards where the ref was.
Two other times he overruled the TJs, not only ours. Their TJ refused to change position and we had the rather silly situation of both lines being to the right to where the TJ was standing.
The opinion of one of the players was that he realised his gaff with the blatant forward pass and that got to him a bit. Then he knew there was something going on in the scrums but couldn't work out what it was. His confidence hit, his performance dropped.
I'm not moaning at the prop. Kudos to him for trying the sideways push so obviously. It surprised everyone, including the ref. It was right in front of our TJ.
The player I spoke with said, of the ref's performance, What can you do? He was resigned to such performances and, I suppose, I should be. As I said, he wasn't partial and he did his best probably so the blame must lie elsewhere and nothing I can say will change that.
At a previous club I used to video all the matches and towards the end of the season I made a video of all the obvious mistakes from refs over the season. It was meant to be funny, and it was. I showed it to the coach first and he demanded that all copies should be destroyed as if we'd played it and word got out, the RFU would, in his words, crucify us.
This 'untouchable refs' belief is to blame a bit as well I think. (I've mentioned this before but it is an example of what I mean.)
I prepared a video extract as a defence, a complete defence, against an accusation of stamping. It didn't happen yet, because the ref said it did, the player got a two match ban, which, we were told, would have been reduced to one if he'd pleaded.
My son's career will be over at this, and next hopefully, level in another 3 seasons. When that happens, watch YouTube.
having played from levels 3-12, and had the pleasure of reffing a few games of 12, i think it boils down to the fact as you say of refs simply not understanding the dark arts of the scrum.
it would help if say your first 5 games were videod or assesed, and you could pick up where you went wrong etc?
it would help if say your first 5 games were videod or assesed, and you could pick up where you went wrong etc?
a better idea would be to have ex-props and hookers (and 2nd rows & back rows) as an extra official in the 4th official's trailer. Feeding, scrum goes down etc etc and they'll soon have the ref pinging the guilty ones. TBF this doesn't help (initially) in the junior leagues but as people see things being correctly reffed things should change
Edited by irocfan on Sunday 2nd November 09:52
I've played at Championship / National 1 and Pro in France, you get the same issues with refs missing obvious underhand tactics even at that level.
I have never liked what I see as cheating in rugby, I think it is a trait more suited to football, but when it happens you have to simply adapt to it as you'll never change the decision of the ref, especially if they can't see what is going on e.g purposefully moving backwards in the scrum.
If you recorded the game, is it worth sending it into the RFU for review? Collapsing the scum repeatedly is dangerous so might get the other club a few warnings and at least on the radar of other officials.
I have never liked what I see as cheating in rugby, I think it is a trait more suited to football, but when it happens you have to simply adapt to it as you'll never change the decision of the ref, especially if they can't see what is going on e.g purposefully moving backwards in the scrum.
If you recorded the game, is it worth sending it into the RFU for review? Collapsing the scum repeatedly is dangerous so might get the other club a few warnings and at least on the radar of other officials.
Crush said:
I've played at Championship / National 1 and Pro in France, you get the same issues with refs missing obvious underhand tactics even at that level.
I have never liked what I see as cheating in rugby, I think it is a trait more suited to football, but when it happens you have to simply adapt to it as you'll never change the decision of the ref, especially if they can't see what is going on e.g purposefully moving backwards in the scrum.
If you recorded the game, is it worth sending it into the RFU for review? Collapsing the scum repeatedly is dangerous so might get the other club a few warnings and at least on the radar of other officials.
My club has approached the RFU with not so much a complaint - he was bad for both sides - as an observation. I have never liked what I see as cheating in rugby, I think it is a trait more suited to football, but when it happens you have to simply adapt to it as you'll never change the decision of the ref, especially if they can't see what is going on e.g purposefully moving backwards in the scrum.
If you recorded the game, is it worth sending it into the RFU for review? Collapsing the scum repeatedly is dangerous so might get the other club a few warnings and at least on the radar of other officials.
The match today was different. The ref made mistakes but in general played well. I don't think we can complain about that. In fact, no one did.
That said, inside their 22 their pack almost ran backwards as we awaited the ball. Our front row, being a bit green, instead of falling, tried to keep their feet.
But overall a good performance from the ref. He did his best, was fair, and missed only a bit. He was a bit generous with his yellow cards, two of which confused the players.
In chatting to the other side's supporters I found that they had negative experiences with a couple of refs, the same ones we had. To the question: what's the answer, one of the older blokes said that there should be a supplied touch judge. We have inexperienced refs yet our level is the last that touch judges can't take a full part. Also, the chap thought that confidence was a problem for some refs. They know they have made a mistake. With a support running with them they will have someone to talk with. And, as the bloke said, a way of changing his mind after a decision without losing face.
Not given it all that much thought but at first glance, sounds good to me.
I agree with what you say about cheating.
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