Wood pellet/bio mass boilers etc...

[jason61c]

Right, I've had a chat on the phone this AM.

A boiler with 5 year warranty(swiss made) delivered and setup etc is £8.5k.

We can claim back 22600kwh at 12.2p for 7 years. Meaning the boiler and install cost is paid for in year 3.

Basic maths(man maths), means that over 7 years we can have our total heating install cost(£12k with boiler) and about £9k extra back on top.

Now this seems quite bonkers to me. What do I need to check? I can store about 2 tonnes of bags at once, the above price was with a 600l hopper.

How can I work out how many tonnes I'll need to buy per year?

[Mr Whippy]

Is the subsidy fixed for the 7 year term?

Also what happens at the end of 7 years when the subsidy is gone? Is it still competitive with for example a 50% increase in the fuel costs?

I guess you can always swap again in the future though.


Why not look at GSHP and solar perhaps? If you have the space both on the floor and in the roof?!

Dave

[jason61c]

Mr Whippy said:

Is the subsidy fixed for the 7 year term?

Also what happens at the end of 7 years when the subsidy is gone? Is it still competitive with for example a 50% increase in the fuel costs?

I guess you can always swap again in the future though.


Why not look at GSHP and solar perhaps? If you have the space both on the floor and in the roof?!

Dave

Its index linked, so currently 12.2p/kwh. When its gone you just don't get any feed in rates. Fuel costs so far have been very very firm at about £240tonne. GSHP just doesn't stack up for me, regarding solar, they're a public eyesore on the nation

[FlipFlopGriff]

Is the 22,600kwh from your EPC? If so yes multiply by 12.2p for the annual total. Payments are quarterly for 7 years. Just had ours confirmed about a week ago. The biomass provides hot water and heating so the 2 heat demands are added to calculate the payment. We had an electrically heated boiler on a timer for hot water before and our electric bill has dropped about £30pcm by binning this and we've turned the 2 dehumidifiers off (didn't have any heating prior to the biomass) which is another £20pcm saved on electric.
You need to jump through a few hoops - have a Green Deal assessment which will give you an EPC & Occupancy assessment, installer must be MCS approved (for the items you are installing (ie some are just PV, some just air source, others cover multiple technologies)), the kit you are installing must be MCS approved, and your recommendation section on your EPC must not state install loft or cavity wall insulation (if applicable). From memory that's it.
I'd get in quick before they realise and do what they did with PV and reduce the payouts.
FFG

[captainzep]

jason61c said:

Right, I've had a chat on the phone this AM.

A boiler with 5 year warranty(swiss made) delivered and setup etc is £8.5k.

We can claim back 22600kwh at 12.2p for 7 years. Meaning the boiler and install cost is paid for in year 3.

Basic maths(man maths), means that over 7 years we can have our total heating install cost(£12k with boiler) and about £9k extra back on top.

Now this seems quite bonkers to me. What do I need to check? I can store about 2 tonnes of bags at once, the above price was with a 600l hopper.

How can I work out how many tonnes I'll need to buy per year?

Presumably the price covers the accumulator tank? You'll want to store the hot water if you're batch burning.

This Forestry Commission document is a bit dated but gives some useful info: http://www.cse.org.uk/pdf/guide%20to%20small-scale...

From there, using wood pellets to heat a 3 bed house requiring 19,589 kWh ÷ 5,000 kWh/tonne = 4 tonnes per year, so for you maybe 5 tonnes?

-I'm also very interested in a biomass boiler setup. -But in my case a log-fired one simply because I'm likely to be self-sufficient in logs -which would increase RHI income and remove concerns about price shenanigans within the industry re. pellets. My man maths suggests ours will have paid for itself within 4 years. Any installation for us would be hand in hand with an extension although another option is to build a little outhouse for the boiler/tank as so many people seem to do in Scandanavia etc. But like the OP, I'd be interested to hear other people's views and experiences too.

Edited by captainzep on Monday 27th October 14:06

[FlipFlopGriff]

Our heat load is just over 47,000kWh and we've used approx. 1 tonne a month (Dec (first installed) - May) in the winter but only one tonne (with spare) throughout the summer (only heating water about a bag a week), so 8-9 tonnes per annum at £250 per tonne delivered (10kg bags).
The pellet prices are the same as when it was first installed and I've looked and cant see much increase in the last 5-10 years. Maybe it'll be like logs where the price increase during the winter months.
FFG

[skilly1]

We have 2 commercial wood chip boilers now about 2 years old. Our payback is 4.5 years (£120k) and the deal is fixed for 20 years. So over the 20 years it will earn / save us £540,000

[jason61c]

FlipFlopGriff said:

Is the 22,600kwh from your EPC? If so yes multiply by 12.2p for the annual total. Payments are quarterly for 7 years. Just had ours confirmed about a week ago. The biomass provides hot water and heating so the 2 heat demands are added to calculate the payment. We had an electrically heated boiler on a timer for hot water before and our electric bill has dropped about £30pcm by binning this and we've turned the 2 dehumidifiers off (didn't have any heating prior to the biomass) which is another £20pcm saved on electric.
You need to jump through a few hoops - have a Green Deal assessment which will give you an EPC & Occupancy assessment, installer must be MCS approved (for the items you are installing (ie some are just PV, some just air source, others cover multiple technologies)), the kit you are installing must be MCS approved, and your recommendation section on your EPC must not state install loft or cavity wall insulation (if applicable). From memory that's it.
I'd get in quick before they realise and do what they did with PV and reduce the payouts.
FFG

Yes, although it seems it might be on the low side, as our house is solid walls, no cavity etc, so i'll take it as a minimum really.

It seems a no brainer, at 9k commissioned for the boiler with a 750ltr hopper, £3k to plumb the rest of the house against getting £21k+ back over 7 years. I'm just researching boilers etc etc now.

[FlipFlopGriff]

We've got a 350 year old farmhouse so also solid walls, single glazed windows so if we're only using that much you should be OK. We don't set the temp above 18.5 though as after 7 years without heating, other than a woodburner in one room, we've got a bit more used to the cold.
Our boiler is a Windhager BioWin 21. 225 square metres internally and a lot of rooms. It takes a bit longer to warm up than a modern boiler but does a good job.
http://www.windhager.co.uk/files/4814/0630/0916/Bi...
The room it is in is about 2m by 1.75m and contains the boiler, hot water tank and gubbins and we can get 100 pellet bags in there. Just need to make sure it will fit through the doors - ours was extremely tight but only 2 doors to get it through, it is around 300kg!!
We see out installer fairly frequently as its new to everyone so he wants to know how much we empty the ash, how many pellets we burn etc and he said other people are having issues with other systems which were only about 10% cheaper so don't go for a cheap option. Windhager are a big name and have a significant office with support in the UK so glad we went for this one - not the cheapest but quality kit.
FFG

[jason61c]

Thanks FFG. We've almost the same requirement. 350odd year old farmhouse, 198sq M internally.

This is what I've been quoted...

http://www.rainbowheatandpower.co.uk/products/effe...

Again not the cheapest but 'apparently' well proven etc.

[RedLeicester]

OP - I assume you'd be replacing non-grid heating, as that's one of the prerequisites for the RHI?

captainzep said:

-I'm also very interested in a biomass boiler setup. -But in my case a log-fired one simply because I'm likely to be self-sufficient in logs -which would increase RHI income and remove concerns about price shenanigans within the industry re. pellets. My man maths suggests ours will have paid for itself within 4 years. Any installation for us would be hand in hand with an extension although another option is to build a little outhouse for the boiler/tank as so many people seem to do in Scandanavia etc. But like the OP, I'd be interested to hear other people's views and experiences too.

We did this, albeit three years ago now. 37kw combined log/pellet boiler. Will pay off in another 18 months without the RHI, with the RHI it looks like it'll return the install cost and then roughly the 70% again on top.

Approx cost on pellets per annum - £1800
Approx cost buying in split wood per annum - £1500
Approx cost buying in greenwood - £400 per annum
Approx cost of using our own wood - my time and a few gallons of two stroke.

We originally just looked at log boilers but decided to go for one with pellet backup - our main holidays are in the winter, so the boiler can still run itself and prevent the house from freezing into a little ice block, and also as an enticing resale option for those terrified by logs or simply for an alternative for us if we were to get lazy!

[jason61c]

RedLeicester said:

OP - I assume you'd be replacing non-grid heating, as that's one of the prerequisites for the RHI?

captainzep said:

-I'm also very interested in a biomass boiler setup. -But in my case a log-fired one simply because I'm likely to be self-sufficient in logs -which would increase RHI income and remove concerns about price shenanigans within the industry re. pellets. My man maths suggests ours will have paid for itself within 4 years. Any installation for us would be hand in hand with an extension although another option is to build a little outhouse for the boiler/tank as so many people seem to do in Scandanavia etc. But like the OP, I'd be interested to hear other people's views and experiences too.

We did this, albeit three years ago now. 37kw combined log/pellet boiler. Will pay off in another 18 months without the RHI, with the RHI it looks like it'll return the install cost and then roughly the 70% again on top.

Approx cost on pellets per annum - £1800
Approx cost buying in split wood per annum - £1500
Approx cost buying in greenwood - £400 per annum
Approx cost of using our own wood - my time and a few gallons of two stroke.

We originally just looked at log boilers but decided to go for one with pellet backup - our main holidays are in the winter, so the boiler can still run itself and prevent the house from freezing into a little ice block, and also as an enticing resale option for those terrified by logs or simply for an alternative for us if we were to get lazy!

ERM, sort of, we don't have any type of heating so it should be ok

[RedLeicester]

jason61c said:

ERM, sort of, we don't have any type of heating so it should be ok

As long as you *can't get* mains gas - they tightened down the rules for the RHI shortly before launch and basically it ruled out anyone who had mains supply heating as an alternative...

[jason61c]

RedLeicester said:

As long as you *can't get* mains gas - they tightened down the rules for the RHI shortly before launch and basically it ruled out anyone who had mains supply heating as an alternative...

I think there's a mains connection in the road, however there's no mains gas to the house, should be ok!?

[RedLeicester]

jason61c said:

RedLeicester said:

As long as you *can't get* mains gas - they tightened down the rules for the RHI shortly before launch and basically it ruled out anyone who had mains supply heating as an alternative...

I think there's a mains connection in the road, however there's no mains gas to the house, should be ok!?

Hopefully, but get it in writing! The rules were a massive clampdown from what was first proposed three years ago. You *should* be okay as you aren't currently hooked up, but they may frown upon it being an option which you chose not to use. Our nearest gas main is about 14 miles away the other side of a large river, which is a rather different situation.

[FlipFlopGriff]

This will give you all the info you should need:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/87121/...
The govt have a target for renewable technologies and gas isn't. It is for off grid and on grid systems (page 4) but it s states it will be more cost effective for off grid systems. We were quoted £24k to connect to the mains even though houses less than 40m away have mains gas - it is ludicrous, but we wanted something more environmentally friendly anyway and the RHI payments are a bonus.
Happy to give you my installers details if you want a 2nd opinion.
FFG

[RedLeicester]

FlipFlopGriff said:

This will give you all the info you should need:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/87121/...
The govt have a target for renewable technologies and gas isn't. It is for off grid and on grid systems (page 4) but it s states it will be more cost effective for off grid systems. We were quoted £24k to connect to the mains even though houses less than 40m away have mains gas - it is ludicrous, but we wanted something more environmentally friendly anyway and the RHI payments are a bonus.
Happy to give you my installers details if you want a 2nd opinion.
FFG

Hmm, they've tweaked that yet again! Sods.

I'm trying to find it, but there's definitely a reference elsewhere about RHI only being applicable to those *removing* Oil/LPG/electric and not mains gas. On the flip side, as in your case they can hardly expect a homeowner to fork out whatever number BG or whomsoever picks out of a hat to get connected to a main.

[FlipFlopGriff]

RedLeicester said:

Hmm, they've tweaked that yet again! Sods.

I'm trying to find it, but there's definitely a reference elsewhere about RHI only being applicable to those *removing* Oil/LPG/electric and not mains gas. On the flip side, as in your case they can hardly expect a homeowner to fork out whatever number BG or whomsoever picks out of a hat to get connected to a main.

We've not been asked if we had mains gas, oil LPG or other.
We're generally the unluckiest people but this has worked to our advantage.
FFG

[RedLeicester]

FlipFlopGriff said:

We're generally the unluckiest people but this has worked to our advantage.
FFG

Know the feeling. I went batsh*t at someone the other day over this ruddy Green Deal Assessment - they refused to send out a surveyor unless I handed over details of electricity supplier and bills. Told them it wasn't relevant and they could sod off. I. Don't. Want. Your. Money. Just give me the goddamn cert ffs!

[jason61c]

RedLeicester said:

Hmm, they've tweaked that yet again! Sods.

I'm trying to find it, but there's definitely a reference elsewhere about RHI only being applicable to those *removing* Oil/LPG/electric and not mains gas. On the flip side, as in your case they can hardly expect a homeowner to fork out whatever number BG or whomsoever picks out of a hat to get connected to a main.

I've just been reading thought it, we'll be fine, as you say, its for on or off grid. They do say the savings will be best for those off grid or on oil though.

Just need to decide on the boiler. My best mate owes me, he's got his own gas firm so If I budget 3k for radiators/plumbing and 'payment' then I've just got the boiler cost.

The quote was 9k for

Effecta Komplett III 25kW Light Right Side Pellet Hopper Inc. 1 Heating Circuit with Auger "S" Plan £7,786.00
Commissioning £588
Deliver £590
Medium 750ltr hopper £600
Starter Kit - Effecta 20kW - Ø130mm Twin Wall Straight Length 1 metre - Ø130mm Twin Wall Seal, 130mm
Wall Bracket, CMI, 130mm
Finishing Kit - Effecta 25kW - Ø130mm Twin Wall
700.00 110.00 3.00 18.00 260.00
700.00 440.00 12.00 36.00 260.00

Came to 11k, however with 'discount' 9k.

Thats from www.rainbowheatandpower.co.uk who are a part of http://www.treco.co.uk/

Would it make sense to pay a bit more and use a company like this who have been selling biomass boilers for 30+ years etc?