Builder Turning Threatening

[Too Late]

We started a house build in May and was paying a foreman/builder £180 a day and his brother-in-law £150. He said day rate is better for us and that he will hopefully get business through the work on our house in our village.

Although sticking to budgets in a build it was tough we always paid his wages and weeks costs on a Thursday. Sometimes we would get a text Friday saying X needs to be paid and we would then arrange to give him the cash. Everything was cash. There were a few funny issues of him saying how stressed hes been during our build, losing sleep. We got comments like we don't seem "interested" and that he's the only one who cares about the build.

Early September money was getting tight and we took the decision to close site in order to settle a few bills (Money got very tight) and to catch up in October, we gave him 3 and a half weeks notice of the site closure. We have been very open about our money situation with him

Early October we met up. I went though a list of jobs and asked for a breakdown in costs for each job. Upon receiving the list of costs i went about comparing them to local firms. An example is screeding 2 rooms and latexing the lower ground floor. He quoted £1200 and i got a local firm to do it for £600 (i paid £150 in materials) So a big difference. I email my builder and said i cant afford his prices and he replies saying "good luck with the build, hope you finish it".

Roll on Friday last week, screeders are in and crack on for £600.

I then get a voice mail from my builder, 3 minuets long which i forgot to save before it automatically deleted itself calling me a c*nt and that he want to smash my face in. So i call him and then get an earful how I am a snake and a c*nt and how he is going to smash me up.....
Blaming me for fall outs with contractors (who are friends) he brought on to site, how he was on day rate and lost money doing my build and that he had been told that i wanted him only to do the shell so i can go at it alone with the build

Now, he yelled we owe £280 to him for a plumber...... We also are missing our gas meter, maybe stolen, and he has an SD card of ours, front door key, along with the red book for costings throughout the build he has spent and asked for which we want. I have sent a text trying to meet up to pay and get our final bits.

The house will be secure this weekend with new locks arriving. Is there anything else i can do to protect myself?

Thanks
N

[AndStilliRise]

If it was me:

1. Document everything up and till now
2. Install CCTV on the site
3. Add some warning signs that the site is being protected by CCTV and any criminal damage would will be prosecuted
4. Inform the police of threatening behavior
5. Let him know that police have been informed

Hope this helps.

[Gargamel]

You could call the police and report the threats ?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but why on earth would you agree to pay cash in hand to a builder and have not agreed a full price in writing before work was done. With a proper schedule of works and build cost?

I cannot understand why you would choose to go about the work in this way, especially as new build work is largely VAT exempt in any case.

Record all future contact.
Tell the builder that you have his voicemail of threats and that all future discussions need to be civilised.

I think you need to try and understand what the issues are, I would imagine he is unhappy you have used one of his subcontractors without him getting his "project management" fee.

[andburg]

sounds like he's agreed a day rate which seems cheap to you but is then getting his friends to come do the work at an inflated cost and taking a profit share. He's made promises on how much he can milk you for and is getting grief based on these.


but then I don't trust people....

[supermono]

It's funny but builders seem to be a law onto themselves. As a freelancer I've lost count of the number of offices and people I've got on with and resolved the odd disputes with amicably yet I've had a plasterer, plumber and electrician all of who seemed a tinderbox about to go up when I try to get the work done right (and no I'm not a fussy tt just want straight pipes, nice plaster finish etc, just good work) one got abusive because of a simple misunderstood spec which I was happy to pay him to resolve even though an ounce of common sense on his part would have saved the issue from even happening.

So good luck and definitely report to the police so at least he's in the suspect list should anything happen

[Too Late]

He led us down the Day Rate and hindsight we would have gone fixed.
We got lost in all the money with were we were and where it was going.

ahhhh crap

[JustinP1]

Too Late said:

Blaming me for fall outs with contractors (who are friends) he brought on to site, how he was on day rate and lost money doing my build...

Fixed rate it good for you, as the builder has to keep costs and time under control, and you have a fixed rate.

Day rate is great for a builder, as they will always be in pocket. In this instance, you have effectively paid him a salary of £46,800 per year in cash. We can surmise how much of that is being declared to HMRC.

It sounds like on top of this, he would get quotes for jobs, add a percentage to them for his own pocket, on top of the £46k a year cash he was getting you'd give him even more cash. Then, just now, you've found him out. It sounds like he knows he's been found out too.

What's the VAT situation here? You have VAT receipts for all these jobs, right?

[Too Late]

So i have taken the advice above and raise an account with the police and have them visiting me in the not to distant future for a statement!

Looking at 2 cctv cameras now.

Thanks chaps...

[Too Late]

JustinP1 said:

Fixed rate it good for you, as the builder has to keep costs and time under control, and you have a fixed rate.

Day rate is great for a builder, as they will always be in pocket. In this instance, you have effectively paid him a salary of £46,800 per year in cash. We can surmise how much of that is being declared to HMRC.

It sounds like on top of this, he would get quotes for jobs, add a percentage to them for his own pocket, on top of the £46k a year cash he was getting you'd give him even more cash. Then, just now, you've found him out. It sounds like he knows he's been found out too.

What's the VAT situation here? You have VAT receipts for all these jobs, right?

Nail on the head.

Ohhh bks.. should have gone with a fixed rate...

[anonymous-user]

Too Late said:

Nail on the head.

Ohhh bks.. should have gone with a fixed rate...

Don't beat yourself up. My bast mate is in a pickle atm. Fixed rate, JCT minor works contract, proper drawings, the lot. 6m job overran by 6m. The builder basically underpriced the job, so has done what he considers what he is prepared to do for the price, and has now walked off site, leaving them with an uninhabitable house.

It can all be sorted out with massive applications of more cash, and there's a chance down the road to sue the builder to kingdom come, but that's not really the point...

[JustinP1]

Too Late said:

JustinP1 said:

Fixed rate it good for you, as the builder has to keep costs and time under control, and you have a fixed rate.

Day rate is great for a builder, as they will always be in pocket. In this instance, you have effectively paid him a salary of £46,800 per year in cash. We can surmise how much of that is being declared to HMRC.

It sounds like on top of this, he would get quotes for jobs, add a percentage to them for his own pocket, on top of the £46k a year cash he was getting you'd give him even more cash. Then, just now, you've found him out. It sounds like he knows he's been found out too.

What's the VAT situation here? You have VAT receipts for all these jobs, right?

Nail on the head.

Ohhh bks.. should have gone with a fixed rate...

You can only move forwards now - don't worry about it.

The problem is that no builder likes picking up the half finished job of someone else.

The most urgent thing is getting your VAT situation in order. As (I hope!) you know, on a new build most things should be VAT free. The problem is you have little record apart from chunks of cash that is no good to you.

My advice would be to seek the advice of a building expert here to pick apart what's gone on and put a plan in place to finish the build, otherwise your problems are only going to mount up. As for an arse having a rant on a message? Don't worry about it!

[BertBert]

JustinP1 said:

The most urgent thing is getting your VAT situation in order. As (I hope!) you know, on a new build most things should be VAT free. The problem is you have little record apart from chunks of cash that is no good to you.

I don't understand this. What obligation has the OP got here assuming he is just a consumer rather than a business having the work done?
Bert

[JustinP1]

BertBert said:

JustinP1 said:

The most urgent thing is getting your VAT situation in order. As (I hope!) you know, on a new build most things should be VAT free. The problem is you have little record apart from chunks of cash that is no good to you.

I don't understand this. What obligation has the OP got here assuming he is just a consumer rather than a business having the work done?
Bert

There's no obligation to report to HMRC.

The issue is that at the end of the build you can apply to HMRC to reclaim your VAT paid to contractors and materials you've bought. If you don't have those records you can't reclaim the VAT - something which runs into tens of thousands of pounds.

[Durzel]

andburg said:

sounds like he's agreed a day rate which seems cheap to you but is then getting his friends to come do the work at an inflated cost and taking a profit share. He's made promises on how much he can milk you for and is getting grief based on these.


but then I don't trust people....

This. The guy is pissed that his money well has suddenly dried up and how he's going to have to find a way out of the lease purchase he's signed up for on some expensive metal. Or something along those lines.

Sorry to be blunt but what due diligence did you do before agreeing to this daily rate for him? It sounds like as soon as you costed out one job and found out he was twice the price it should've given you some clue that the guy probably wasn't on the level (and certainly not someone you'd agree to pay a daily rate for an indeterminate period for).

[HaroldBishop]

If he was on a day rate from start to finish then he most certainly hasn't lost money, that's total crap he's spinning you. If anything he's done far better than he would've done out of a fixed price.

Hope you manage to get this sorted OP.

[Too Late]

Thanks for the replies everyone

When i say house build. it was an extension but we should have gone through a new build process for the VAT releif.
We went from


and we are at this stage now (from the back)

[roofer]

Crisp looking work. So, assuming the penny never finally dropped with you, and you mugged him off,play him at his own game.

Tell him to come round for a straightener, he'll bottle it...

[TVR1]

In the dim but not too distant i ran my own tiling company. Specifically, repairing everything bodged and generally fooked up by others. I wasnt cheap (but a lot less than ripping up and starting again) and ALWAYS quoted price work. I can't thinkof a job that I didnt have to do more than first thought but other than materials, charged nothing more.

That way everyone is happy. No client breathing down your neck 'cos the days are ticking. Me? Happy 'cos I dont have to justify good quality work v cost. If it takes longer, I sucked it up. I had many, many referals.

Naturally, there will always be some extraordinary and impossible to foresee event but as a rule, Day rate is a mugs game. (Well,not for the tradesman)

[Foppo]

He said the day rate is better for us. You quoted)Of course it is for him.

Family member had work done by a Polish builder price agreed from the start and top quality job.

Never never trust anybody when its' down to money the little horns come out their head and you will be robbed.

[Wozy68]

Too Late said:

Thanks for the replies everyone

When i say house build. it was an extension but we should have gone through a new build process for the VAT releif.
We went from


and we are at this stage now (from the back)

No zero rating for VAT on that buddy. Personally I'd let it go and move on.

Not sure fitting CCTV is the answer either...... Whats the world coming too.