What's the likely outcome?
Discussion
My friend was caught without insurance and two tyres below the legal limit back in April this year. He was on his way home around 2AM with around a mile to go when his car felt strange. He pulled over to check what was wrong and one wheel had become loose so he stopped to tighten the wheel nuts and check nothing else was a miss.
Whilst stopped a panda car with two uniform officers stopped to ask what he was doing. I’m guessing seeing someone at the side of the road at 2AM in the morning working on their car could be a strange sight.
My friend explained what had happened which the officers were happy with but while he was there they decided they wanted to run some routine checks to make sure him and the car were legit. Upon checking the details the car came back saying it wasn’t insured, however my friend was adamant it was insured on a temporary policy.
Once they had the information the car was uninsured they went through the car with a fine tooth comb finding both rear tyres were below the legal limit. The car was impounded, my friend given a lift home and told they would be in contact via post of their intended action.
Fast forward to yesterday where he’s received a summons to court for driving a vehicle whilst uninsured and the two balding tyres.
Having spoken with him he admits the tyres were a massive over sight and he should have been more careful, he hasn’t much of a defence against these, but has been much more careful since.
The insurance is a little more complex. His car was insured on a temporary policy for one week. He thought the date the insurance expired was 12PM the following day, it was actually 12PM the previous day he was stopped, so the insurance had only been expired for two hours when he was stopped.
Furthermore, he needs to drive for his job and their policy is each employee can have only a maximum of 9 points on their license.
What is the likely outcome of these offences?
From looking on gov.uk website the IN10 offence carries 6-8 penalty points and each tyre up to 3 penalty points. So that’s a total outcome of around 12-14 penalty points, i.e job loss, license loss and I’d imagine a fairly hefty fine to boot.
Is there anything he can do to soften the blow? I believe there is a course on defective tyres now, would it be possible to plead ignorance on the tyres and say how a course could benefit you. At least then despite the IN10 he would still be able to keep his job, license etc.
Opinions please.
Whilst stopped a panda car with two uniform officers stopped to ask what he was doing. I’m guessing seeing someone at the side of the road at 2AM in the morning working on their car could be a strange sight.
My friend explained what had happened which the officers were happy with but while he was there they decided they wanted to run some routine checks to make sure him and the car were legit. Upon checking the details the car came back saying it wasn’t insured, however my friend was adamant it was insured on a temporary policy.
Once they had the information the car was uninsured they went through the car with a fine tooth comb finding both rear tyres were below the legal limit. The car was impounded, my friend given a lift home and told they would be in contact via post of their intended action.
Fast forward to yesterday where he’s received a summons to court for driving a vehicle whilst uninsured and the two balding tyres.
Having spoken with him he admits the tyres were a massive over sight and he should have been more careful, he hasn’t much of a defence against these, but has been much more careful since.
The insurance is a little more complex. His car was insured on a temporary policy for one week. He thought the date the insurance expired was 12PM the following day, it was actually 12PM the previous day he was stopped, so the insurance had only been expired for two hours when he was stopped.
Furthermore, he needs to drive for his job and their policy is each employee can have only a maximum of 9 points on their license.
What is the likely outcome of these offences?
From looking on gov.uk website the IN10 offence carries 6-8 penalty points and each tyre up to 3 penalty points. So that’s a total outcome of around 12-14 penalty points, i.e job loss, license loss and I’d imagine a fairly hefty fine to boot.
Is there anything he can do to soften the blow? I believe there is a course on defective tyres now, would it be possible to plead ignorance on the tyres and say how a course could benefit you. At least then despite the IN10 he would still be able to keep his job, license etc.
Opinions please.
As multiple offences were there, he (you) will not be offered the course as it's already gone to court.
It's the magistrates decision at the end of the day. 6 points for no insurance plus 3 for each tyre. He (you) will need to put a strong case together to the magistrate on why he (you) still needs to drive. It is possible to drive on more than 12 points.
Yes the policy lapsed 2 hours before he was stopped but it still lapsed which means if something happened, there would be no insurance.
Expect some hefty fines too. It's £300 at the roadside for no insurance, most likely more via a court.
It's the magistrates decision at the end of the day. 6 points for no insurance plus 3 for each tyre. He (you) will need to put a strong case together to the magistrate on why he (you) still needs to drive. It is possible to drive on more than 12 points.
Yes the policy lapsed 2 hours before he was stopped but it still lapsed which means if something happened, there would be no insurance.
Expect some hefty fines too. It's £300 at the roadside for no insurance, most likely more via a court.
He (you) could try pleading mitigating circumstances, but insurance is either valid, or not. Matters not really that it was only out by 2 hours. The magistrates might be lenient to some extent though. Make it obvious that he (you) needs the car desperately for work. If he (you) has a previously clean licence, play on that. Good luck.
mehball said:
It's the magistrates decision at the end of the day. 6 points for no insurance plus 3 for each tyre. He (you) will need to put a strong case together to the magistrate on why he (you) still needs to drive. It is possible to drive on more than 12 points.
As I understand it (IANAL) the 3 points rather than six will be applied for the tyres. I may be wrong.Section 28(4) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988:
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
Vaud said:
mehball said:
It's the magistrates decision at the end of the day. 6 points for no insurance plus 3 for each tyre. He (you) will need to put a strong case together to the magistrate on why he (you) still needs to drive. It is possible to drive on more than 12 points.
As I understand it (IANAL) the 3 points rather than six will be applied for the tyres. I may be wrong.Section 28(4) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988:
Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
SS2. said:
Whilst the Magistrates do have the option of imposing penalty points for each separate offence, they are more likely to order 6 (to 8) for the no insurance and zero for the 2 x defective tyres.
Almost right. They are most likely to endorse 8 penalty points and a fine for no insurance, and no separate penalty for the other offences. As you've identified, it is open to endorse 6-8 points, but where multiple endorseable offences are dealt with at the same time then you may expect the maximum for the most serious offence and NSP for the others. OP would have done exceptionally well to get only 6 or 7 points in the situation outlined.Thanks for the (mostly) helpful replies.
For people suggesting that my friend is a figure of my imagination and this thread is really about me, you’re wrong. I’m simply relaying the story he told me and trying to give him some advice on the best course of action.
This is entirely out of character as before now he had an entirely clean license and hasn’t been convicted of any non-motoring crimes either.
As for pleading ignorance on the tyres, perhaps that was the wrong phrase to use. I was simply wanting to know if he could ask to have the penalty points waived if he were to attend a course which he personally feels would benefit him more. It would also have the plus side of keeping his license and ultimately his job!
From the replies thus far it seems it will be down to the magistrate to decide so pleading mitigating circumstances playing on the fact how important his license is to him for his job etc. will be the best course of action.
ETA: Thanks Agtlaw for the clarification. I believe you're a lawyer that deals with motoring offences, if I've got this correct and not confused you with someone else would it be possible to forward your details onto my friend as I'm sure he's going to need all the advice and help he can get.
For people suggesting that my friend is a figure of my imagination and this thread is really about me, you’re wrong. I’m simply relaying the story he told me and trying to give him some advice on the best course of action.
This is entirely out of character as before now he had an entirely clean license and hasn’t been convicted of any non-motoring crimes either.
As for pleading ignorance on the tyres, perhaps that was the wrong phrase to use. I was simply wanting to know if he could ask to have the penalty points waived if he were to attend a course which he personally feels would benefit him more. It would also have the plus side of keeping his license and ultimately his job!
From the replies thus far it seems it will be down to the magistrate to decide so pleading mitigating circumstances playing on the fact how important his license is to him for his job etc. will be the best course of action.
ETA: Thanks Agtlaw for the clarification. I believe you're a lawyer that deals with motoring offences, if I've got this correct and not confused you with someone else would it be possible to forward your details onto my friend as I'm sure he's going to need all the advice and help he can get.
Edited by Bradley1500 on Wednesday 29th October 14:29
Why does the myth of 3 points per tyre persist
https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/end...
The gov website has even updated its penalty table to say tyre(s) so its pretty clear it is 3 points no matter how many defective tyres you have, although that is not strictly correct as it is possible for a single or even multiple tyres to be non endorsable but this is rare, i belive the faulty tyre or tyres must represent less than 50% of non steering axles which is impossible with 4 wheels (unless 3 were on the same axle)
https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/end...
The gov website has even updated its penalty table to say tyre(s) so its pretty clear it is 3 points no matter how many defective tyres you have, although that is not strictly correct as it is possible for a single or even multiple tyres to be non endorsable but this is rare, i belive the faulty tyre or tyres must represent less than 50% of non steering axles which is impossible with 4 wheels (unless 3 were on the same axle)
We look to the most serious offence, the insurance. No previous, slight lapse, so 6 to 8 pp, not a ban. Early plea should get discount so as long as he doesn't go to trial, expect 6pp. Other matters will be recorded on licence but no points, though he should be able to negotiate with CPS/PF to get at least one if not both of these dropped. Expect a fine of £100 or so for each tyre.
ked, bend over and lube up.Tribal Chestnut said:
Loose wheel nuts, bald tyres, no insurance? I'm not normally of this mindset, but I'm really struggling to have much sympathy in this instance.
...and at 2am, don't forget.This screams to me that he knew exactly what the score was, and was attempting to sneak it home without being spotted.
Genuine question and wanting genuine answers. This really is my friend and not me for anyone else still doubting, my license is 100% clean (except a speed awareness course last year!)
A few helpful PHers seem to have answered my questions. I've told him to expect the judges to ignore the tyres and simply rule the harshest punishment for driving without insurance so up to 8 points and hefty fine plus court costs.
The car wasn't new to him but from memory he had recently bought a new car and changed the insurance over. I'm not sure why he temporarily covered his old car but it was a genuine mistake on his part on the date the insurance expired.
Once I know the outcome I'll update you guys. Thanks for all the helpful responses.
A few helpful PHers seem to have answered my questions. I've told him to expect the judges to ignore the tyres and simply rule the harshest punishment for driving without insurance so up to 8 points and hefty fine plus court costs.
The car wasn't new to him but from memory he had recently bought a new car and changed the insurance over. I'm not sure why he temporarily covered his old car but it was a genuine mistake on his part on the date the insurance expired.
Once I know the outcome I'll update you guys. Thanks for all the helpful responses.
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