Cleaner/dog walker, how to pay?
Discussion
Hello 
We are currently paying our dog walker a not insignificant amount of money to come to our house twice a day and walk our two dogs.
We were thinking about getting a cleaner too but then had a thought.
We would like to pay someone to come to our house at 10am, walk the dogs till 11am, do a bit of house work (hoover/iorn/dust/mop), sit on the sofa with cup of tea and watch TV with dogs for a couple of hours, walk the dogs again 2.30-3.00 and then leave.
This would be great for someone retired or with kids at school.
The issue is, how to pay them, would they have to be a "sole trader" and then send me an invoice once a month?
Would I have to work out the pay on a day rate, or hourly, or monthly?
We don’t want to "employ" them for obvious reasons.
considering the nature of the work (sitting on sofa house sitting for half the time), are they subject to minimum wage entitlement?
Thanks
We are currently paying our dog walker a not insignificant amount of money to come to our house twice a day and walk our two dogs.
We were thinking about getting a cleaner too but then had a thought.
We would like to pay someone to come to our house at 10am, walk the dogs till 11am, do a bit of house work (hoover/iorn/dust/mop), sit on the sofa with cup of tea and watch TV with dogs for a couple of hours, walk the dogs again 2.30-3.00 and then leave.
This would be great for someone retired or with kids at school.
The issue is, how to pay them, would they have to be a "sole trader" and then send me an invoice once a month?
Would I have to work out the pay on a day rate, or hourly, or monthly?
We don’t want to "employ" them for obvious reasons.
considering the nature of the work (sitting on sofa house sitting for half the time), are they subject to minimum wage entitlement?
Thanks
egor110 said:
Surely if there 'sitting on the sofa house sitting half the time' they are actually working as you've taken them on to house sit.
Do you think security guards only get paid for the times there patrolling a building?
I didnt say they were not working, I fully class the full 10-3 as "working"Do you think security guards only get paid for the times there patrolling a building?
However, as an example, house sitters dont get paid a proper income to house sit.
Its a genuine question I think, I wouldnt expect to be paid full wage to read a magazine infront of the TV.
They can even do some self employed work on their laptop for all I care.
You would be looking for this person to be self employed, they can choose to work for whatever rate they want so minimum wage doesn't come into it. They would be responsible for their own NI/Tax as necessary.
You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
Piglet said:
You would be looking for this person to be self employed, they can choose to work for whatever rate they want so minimum wage doesn't come into it. They would be responsible for their own NI/Tax as necessary.
You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
As usual, some of the tax advice being doled out on PH is absolutely horrific You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
OP - take professional advice before you act on anything being given here, it'll save you a headache in the long run.
sidekickdmr said:
Seems silly that they are happy to do it this way, I'm happy to pay them this way but regardless, it might not be allowed.
In what way is it silly ? Of course you and the dog walker would be happy to do it, its a simple tax dodge which leave you both better off. If both sides are happy to do it, should I be allowed to pay a plumber in undeclared cash ? Or pay a roofer to work with no safety equipment to get it £30 cheaper ?The chances are if you pay some retired old lady £50 a week cash you're going to get away with it. But its definitely not the correct way to do it. So either do it via someone you trust, or do it legitimately. Bear in mind the trust part... you might trust that nice old lady 3 doors down but that trust can rapidly vanish when your dog pulls her over and she breaks her leg whilst working and then asks you for details on your public liability insurance. Or when the dog gets run over by a car and it all comes out it was out there with an undeclared employee, etc etc
KFC said:
Piglet said:
You would be looking for this person to be self employed, they can choose to work for whatever rate they want so minimum wage doesn't come into it. They would be responsible for their own NI/Tax as necessary.
You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
As usual, some of the tax advice being doled out on PH is absolutely horrific You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
Any idea where to start? happy to pay for someone qualified to give me a straight answer.
KFC said:
[
The chances are if you pay some retired old lady £50 a week cash you're going to get away with it. But its definitely not the correct way to do it. So either do it via someone you trust, or do it legitimately. Bear in mind the trust part... you might trust that nice old lady 3 doors down but that trust can rapidly vanish when your dog pulls her over and she breaks her leg whilst working and then asks you for details on your public liability insurance. Or when the dog gets run over by a car and it all comes out it was out there with an undeclared employee, etc etc
I don’t see why it should be a problem (but know it is) as despite me being the only client they will be working as a sole trader and filling out a tax return/paying tax exactly the same way as if she had 2 clients, which seems fine and legitimate.sidekickdmr said:
Seems silly that they are happy to do it this way, I'm happy to pay them this way but regardless, it might not be allowed.
In what way is it silly ? Of course you and the dog walker would be happy to do it, its a simple tax dodge which leave you both better off. If both sides are happy to do it, should I be allowed to pay a plumber in undeclared cash ? Or pay a roofer to work with no safety equipment to get it £30 cheaper ?The chances are if you pay some retired old lady £50 a week cash you're going to get away with it. But its definitely not the correct way to do it. So either do it via someone you trust, or do it legitimately. Bear in mind the trust part... you might trust that nice old lady 3 doors down but that trust can rapidly vanish when your dog pulls her over and she breaks her leg whilst working and then asks you for details on your public liability insurance. Or when the dog gets run over by a car and it all comes out it was out there with an undeclared employee, etc etc
Im not talking £50 a week for some old dear, im talking about £600 a month for someone decent and this will probably be their only job.
Check out the "Badges of Trade" and decide whether the relationship is that of an employer and an employee or between a business and its customer.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM20205....
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM20205....
I think for what you want doing - probably a charge of £30 for the 10-3 shift. That's if your dog walker is happy doing some cleaning tasks as well. If no cleaning involved and just looking after the dogs I think £20 would be fine.
I do dog walking and house sitting - the places I house sit have a cleaner come in once a week for 3 hours. I generally charge £30 for a 24 hour house sit which is about average.
I do dog walking and house sitting - the places I house sit have a cleaner come in once a week for 3 hours. I generally charge £30 for a 24 hour house sit which is about average.
Edited by condor on Tuesday 4th November 19:16
condor said:
I think for what you want doing - probably a charge of £30 for the 10-3 shift. That's if your dog walker is happy doing some cleaning tasks as well. If no cleaning involved and just looking after the dogs I think £20 would be fine.
You're playing with fire as far as minimum wage laws go here (assuming your house sitter/pet walker is over 21). Obviously if you pretend she's self employed that won't apply but if that goes wrong you might end up in trouble in all fronts - not paying appropriate NI for what was regarded as an employee, and paying less than you legally had to.Why is everything so complex?
Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
sidekickdmr said:
Why is everything so complex?
Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
Because then someone working 50 hours in a shop would just say they're self employed too, as would everyone else if it was a purely opt in system.Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
This is straight from the Gov site regarding it :
The Taxman said:
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
From what you're describing you have a very clear 'yes' on every single question in the first group and a very clear 'no' on every one of the second group.... there is no realistic outcome but it being described as an employer-employee relationship if you do this and it ends up being looked into...Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
The Taxman said:
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Do they have to do the work themselves? - No, then can send someone else if they wish.Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it? - She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her.
Can they work a set amount of hours? Yes
Can someone move them from task to task? No, she would manage her own time
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month? Would be a day/week rate paid via invoice
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment? - No
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense? - Yes
Do they risk their own money? - No
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves? - No
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services? - Yes
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes
On balance, I would suggest that the person is an EMPLOYEE.
One question you REALLY need to address is responsibility for work done. Is the individual required to be insured to cover breakages, damages etc they might cause?
And, are REALLY happy that, even though you have hired this particular individual, you have absolutely no say in who they may nominate as a stand in if they can't make it?
Are you REALLY sure about that?
One question you REALLY need to address is responsibility for work done. Is the individual required to be insured to cover breakages, damages etc they might cause?
And, are REALLY happy that, even though you have hired this particular individual, you have absolutely no say in who they may nominate as a stand in if they can't make it?
Are you REALLY sure about that?
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