Discussion
Here is a test drive of the latest limited run supercar on the scene, the Vencer Sarthe (winner of the Most Sensational Supercar award at the 2013 Salon Prive).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0S-Dqwk3mc (English subtitles are available).
Have to say I am very impressed. A great effort from a start-up. Nice to see a new, pure, analogue supercar on the market. Something the industry is missing/lacking these days.
New supercar manufacturers usually have a host of difficulties and challenges technically and commercially when getting their developments off the ground but the Sarthe on the other hand looks promising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0S-Dqwk3mc (English subtitles are available).
Have to say I am very impressed. A great effort from a start-up. Nice to see a new, pure, analogue supercar on the market. Something the industry is missing/lacking these days.
New supercar manufacturers usually have a host of difficulties and challenges technically and commercially when getting their developments off the ground but the Sarthe on the other hand looks promising.
Out of interest, what makes you think that Vencer are any different to the other offerings out there?
The asking price is close to 300k € which is pretty high and it looks like it is running a super charged chevy based LS engine, which is great but cars of like this usually get slammed on PH.....
It's not a million miles away from the Arash AF8 for example.
The asking price is close to 300k € which is pretty high and it looks like it is running a super charged chevy based LS engine, which is great but cars of like this usually get slammed on PH.....
It's not a million miles away from the Arash AF8 for example.
First of all, winning the Salon Prive award is quite an accomplishment for such a company. I think the general look of the car seems really nice albeit a little old-school (I think the point of the Sarthe is to be a throwback to the 80s and 90s Le Mans cars). The name "Sarthe" is paying homage to the legendary Le Mans 24 Hours circuit and from what I understand Vencer means "Victory/Conquer" in Spanish so overall the car has a good name.
It's early days to comment on the build quality but from the looks of it the exterior and interior seemed to be made of a very decent standard of materials.
The noise and numbers the Sarthe produces can rival many other supercars on the market. Price wise yes you could say it's a lot higher than it's competitors but you are paying for exclusivity. The car is supposed to be aimed at someone who already has a Lamborghini or Ferrari (or a collection of supercars) in their garage and wants something a bit different.
The owner of Vencer is a very successful entrepreneur who has built the actual facility to build the cars in so the company seems very serious with their endeavour and appear to be financially sound.
The blue car reviewed in the video has been sold to a client in China (a major market place) so they must be doing something right.
I expect the Sarthe to get a bashing on PH as all newbies and rookies do but all I am trying to say is I think Vencer have the capability to do well. Will they be a great success like Pagani and Koenigsegg? Only time will tell.
Remember when Koenigsegg first emerged? They were constantly receiving negative comments from everywhere but that didn't stop them from reaching the high level they're at today. I think Vencer should be given a chance.
As for the AF8, it's still in prototype stage but from what I have seen and read there is a good car in there too. You got to give it to Mr. Farboud for really putting in the effort. I wish him well.
It's early days to comment on the build quality but from the looks of it the exterior and interior seemed to be made of a very decent standard of materials.
The noise and numbers the Sarthe produces can rival many other supercars on the market. Price wise yes you could say it's a lot higher than it's competitors but you are paying for exclusivity. The car is supposed to be aimed at someone who already has a Lamborghini or Ferrari (or a collection of supercars) in their garage and wants something a bit different.
The owner of Vencer is a very successful entrepreneur who has built the actual facility to build the cars in so the company seems very serious with their endeavour and appear to be financially sound.
The blue car reviewed in the video has been sold to a client in China (a major market place) so they must be doing something right.
I expect the Sarthe to get a bashing on PH as all newbies and rookies do but all I am trying to say is I think Vencer have the capability to do well. Will they be a great success like Pagani and Koenigsegg? Only time will tell.
Remember when Koenigsegg first emerged? They were constantly receiving negative comments from everywhere but that didn't stop them from reaching the high level they're at today. I think Vencer should be given a chance.
As for the AF8, it's still in prototype stage but from what I have seen and read there is a good car in there too. You got to give it to Mr. Farboud for really putting in the effort. I wish him well.
Edited by zondaboy on Sunday 2nd November 22:10
Must say, I'm very impressed after watching that. Pleasing to the eye. Looks well screwed together and £300k is not too unrealistic for an exclusive new supercar. As the write up says, it is aimed at people who already own a collection of supercars, so £300k doesn't really sound idiotic. I can almost sense Jay Leno dialing the factory now!
£250k for an LS engined, steel-framed car? Looks ok, nothing stunning but if I was looking for a car of this sort the Vencer wouldn't get a 2nd glance. It doesn't have the wow factor of a Koenigsegg (all comparisons stop at the doors) and it isn't that far advanced of where the TVR Typhon was. To be honest I'd rather have the TVR and £150k change.
Time for a tea break!! If you're looking for "analogue" (that doesn't look like some Masser remix) its already here and British. Don't take it from me, Chris Harris knows a thing or two about cars and likens it to a modern day F40, that can't be a bad thing!! The finish on the M600 is very, very good. The Atom is too hard core for most, but trust me the Noble is a great bit of kit, if nothing else its a good way to waste 24mins of your day. Forward to 13.18sec for the Noble test, enjoy 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jvHqB4ZxbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jvHqB4ZxbU
Sarthe test drive by Autocar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpXMQ_S18iE Sutters seems to be loving it.
I couldn't care less what it drives like or what award it wins when it looks like the worst bits if all supercars out there combined , squared off and drawn with a ruler . Who designs this crap ? More importantly who looks at it and says "yes that's the one , perfect "??????
They deserve to fail miserably for that alone
They deserve to fail miserably for that alone
The same thing can be said (and similiar things have been said) about the M600 but that hasn't stopped Noble from selling a number of them.
Pictures above were taken from the Top Marques Monaco show that I attended in April of this year. I had a good look at both cars inside and out and I have to say I was left feeling pretty underwhelmed. I have a lot of respect for Noble but the overall design and finish of the M600 was rather mediocre and very uninspiring IMHO. To top it off the M600 with all options (you barely notice them) can cost up to £300K and is powered by a twin turbo VOLVO V8! Go figure.
To me the M600 doesn't look like it's even worth more than £40K (the old M12 looked miles better). I'd rather have a Sarthe over an M600 if I had the choice.
Despite all of the above the M600 has done well sales wise and that is the point, there is a market for these bespoke low volume vehicles. These are vehicles for purists. They're for people who already have all the conventional stuff and want to add something a little bit different to their stable. They're for people who don't care what the rest of us think about them because they can afford not to care.
Pictures above were taken from the Top Marques Monaco show that I attended in April of this year. I had a good look at both cars inside and out and I have to say I was left feeling pretty underwhelmed. I have a lot of respect for Noble but the overall design and finish of the M600 was rather mediocre and very uninspiring IMHO. To top it off the M600 with all options (you barely notice them) can cost up to £300K and is powered by a twin turbo VOLVO V8! Go figure.
To me the M600 doesn't look like it's even worth more than £40K (the old M12 looked miles better). I'd rather have a Sarthe over an M600 if I had the choice.
Despite all of the above the M600 has done well sales wise and that is the point, there is a market for these bespoke low volume vehicles. These are vehicles for purists. They're for people who already have all the conventional stuff and want to add something a little bit different to their stable. They're for people who don't care what the rest of us think about them because they can afford not to care.
Edited by zondaboy on Sunday 9th November 17:42
Edited by zondaboy on Sunday 9th November 17:43
zondaboy said:
To top it off the M600 with all options (you barely notice them) can cost up to £300K and is powered by a twin turbo VOLVO V8! Go figure.
To me the M600 doesn't look like it's even worth more than £40K (the old M12 looked miles better). I'd rather have a Sarthe over an M600 if I had the choice.
Despite all of the above the M600 has done well sales wise and that is the point, there is a market for these bespoke low volume vehicles. These are vehicles for purists. They're for people who already have all the conventional stuff and want to add something a little bit different to their stable. They're for people who don't care what the rest of us think about them because they can afford not to care.
So tell me what is so "go figure" about the Yamaha derived Volvo engine?To me the M600 doesn't look like it's even worth more than £40K (the old M12 looked miles better). I'd rather have a Sarthe over an M600 if I had the choice.
Despite all of the above the M600 has done well sales wise and that is the point, there is a market for these bespoke low volume vehicles. These are vehicles for purists. They're for people who already have all the conventional stuff and want to add something a little bit different to their stable. They're for people who don't care what the rest of us think about them because they can afford not to care.
To say the M600 doesn't look like its worth 40K is ridiculous. The quality is good and much better than say an F40, maybe not as good as a 458's interior, but this is a low volume car manufacture without the backing of Fiat or VAG. These cars are hand built as drivers car's, purist's cars if you prefer and not for posing in with a brand name everyone instantly recognises. You could say that the M600 is a thinking persons hyper car!!
Would I buy one @ 300k (its always been priced around this mark) its a big old bucket of money, if I had that I'd at least give it a go before making my mind up.
Yes I own a Noble, but am not blinkered or pro-Noble, just feel that if something is going to be criticised, have some basis to the criticism.
One last thing is of the cars that have been sold, to date I know of none that have come onto the 2hd hand market.
Agree with a lot of the points you have made wessexrfc. I think there might be some slight misunderstandings about what I wrote.
As I mentioned before I have a lot of respect for Noble. I don’t know anyone from Noble personally but I have come across some of their staff members including Mr. Boutwood at various car shows. They seem like a great bunch of guys and a great company and I am happy to see them going from strength to strength. Great to see a British brand doing so well globally.
Regarding the looks of the M600, To me it looks ok-ish but very basic and average and nowhere near the asking price. I don’t see anything outstanding when looking at it. Not much to be desired. Maybe I’m missing something. For that kind of money you can have both a 458 and an MP4 or even an Aventador which most would say are better looking, better quality cars and overall better value for money but buyers of M600s would likely already own or have owned these cars and so are not seeing it from the same "sensible" angle that the rest of us see it from. The way a car looks is very subjective so we can agree to disagree on that one I’m sure you will agree.
Enough about the looks, when I saw the M600 driving around the streets of Monaco it was making a very pleasant and thunderous noise so sound-wise it is up there with the best of them. The car wasn’t speeding but I could tell the acceleration was in hypercar territory.
About the engine, nothing wrong with the Volvo engine but the point I was trying to make is that many small volume supercar makers often get criticised for using other car manufacturers engines e.g. Ford or Chevy engines, and not using an in-house engine. Also it seems that using an American block cheapens the image of the car. From what I hear these engines are actually very refined, built to a very high-standard, make great sounds and offer all kind of possibilities when tuning them so why should using these engines be looked down upon?
When I started this topic there were replies criticising the Vencer Sarthe’s use of a Chevy LS engine. The M600 would be pitched to the top-end of the market and I would have thought that using a Volvo engine might put off potential buyers (but that hasn't been the case) because let’s face it, Volvo, although are great cars are not associated with high-end luxury and so far I have not heard anyone criticise Noble for using a Volvo engine (apart from Clarkson but I don’t think he counts) so I don’t think there is anything wrong with Vencer using the LS engine.
To sum it up, the looks and interior of the M600 don’t do it for me but in terms of sound and sheer performance I can understand it’s appeal and this all goes back to my original point that the buyers for these type of cars are looking for no-nonsense, non-conforming, stripped down machines that don’t necessarily need to be pretty but do offer a pure, unadulterated driving experience regardless of costs and Vencer (from what I have seen and read) also cater to this need.
The Ferrari F40 can be considered pointless in the real world but it’s the pure driving pleasure that still makes it popular with the purists/proper drivers/thinking men (whatever you want to call them) to this day and even nearly 30 years on and with really high increases in values there are still people buying up F40s all over the world. In recent times I have seen a number of F40s driving around the streets of London. They're like buses.
I’m glad there are manufacturers like Noble and Vencer. The more supercar makers the merrier. This would force all manufacturers to become even more competitive which should improve quality, reliability and performance and gives the consumer more variety which in turn makes things more exciting for us supercar fans and let's not forget the economic benefits (job creation). Now that's a good thing.
I would like to warn some of you now that I will be starting topics on some other new supercars that I have come across on my trips around Europe and again these vehicles have been the subject of much ridicule but from my view I could see some good in them but you might not like what you see but I hope you will find the topics interesting.
Building and promoting a new supercar is no small feat and I wish all supercar manufacturers every success.
As I mentioned before I have a lot of respect for Noble. I don’t know anyone from Noble personally but I have come across some of their staff members including Mr. Boutwood at various car shows. They seem like a great bunch of guys and a great company and I am happy to see them going from strength to strength. Great to see a British brand doing so well globally.
Regarding the looks of the M600, To me it looks ok-ish but very basic and average and nowhere near the asking price. I don’t see anything outstanding when looking at it. Not much to be desired. Maybe I’m missing something. For that kind of money you can have both a 458 and an MP4 or even an Aventador which most would say are better looking, better quality cars and overall better value for money but buyers of M600s would likely already own or have owned these cars and so are not seeing it from the same "sensible" angle that the rest of us see it from. The way a car looks is very subjective so we can agree to disagree on that one I’m sure you will agree.
Enough about the looks, when I saw the M600 driving around the streets of Monaco it was making a very pleasant and thunderous noise so sound-wise it is up there with the best of them. The car wasn’t speeding but I could tell the acceleration was in hypercar territory.
About the engine, nothing wrong with the Volvo engine but the point I was trying to make is that many small volume supercar makers often get criticised for using other car manufacturers engines e.g. Ford or Chevy engines, and not using an in-house engine. Also it seems that using an American block cheapens the image of the car. From what I hear these engines are actually very refined, built to a very high-standard, make great sounds and offer all kind of possibilities when tuning them so why should using these engines be looked down upon?
When I started this topic there were replies criticising the Vencer Sarthe’s use of a Chevy LS engine. The M600 would be pitched to the top-end of the market and I would have thought that using a Volvo engine might put off potential buyers (but that hasn't been the case) because let’s face it, Volvo, although are great cars are not associated with high-end luxury and so far I have not heard anyone criticise Noble for using a Volvo engine (apart from Clarkson but I don’t think he counts) so I don’t think there is anything wrong with Vencer using the LS engine.
To sum it up, the looks and interior of the M600 don’t do it for me but in terms of sound and sheer performance I can understand it’s appeal and this all goes back to my original point that the buyers for these type of cars are looking for no-nonsense, non-conforming, stripped down machines that don’t necessarily need to be pretty but do offer a pure, unadulterated driving experience regardless of costs and Vencer (from what I have seen and read) also cater to this need.
The Ferrari F40 can be considered pointless in the real world but it’s the pure driving pleasure that still makes it popular with the purists/proper drivers/thinking men (whatever you want to call them) to this day and even nearly 30 years on and with really high increases in values there are still people buying up F40s all over the world. In recent times I have seen a number of F40s driving around the streets of London. They're like buses.
I’m glad there are manufacturers like Noble and Vencer. The more supercar makers the merrier. This would force all manufacturers to become even more competitive which should improve quality, reliability and performance and gives the consumer more variety which in turn makes things more exciting for us supercar fans and let's not forget the economic benefits (job creation). Now that's a good thing.
I would like to warn some of you now that I will be starting topics on some other new supercars that I have come across on my trips around Europe and again these vehicles have been the subject of much ridicule but from my view I could see some good in them but you might not like what you see but I hope you will find the topics interesting.
Building and promoting a new supercar is no small feat and I wish all supercar manufacturers every success.
After reading the comments that some of you made about the Noble M600 I've been learning more about the car and after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvQvA3EXLg from Top Gear USA I have a newfound admiration for the car.
Although I'm not completely won over I have to commend Noble for a brilliant effort and a tremendous achievement (this is now turning into a Noble thread).
I don't think it's right to shoot down a new supercar before we even know much about it. They all need time to develop so should all be given a chance and you might disagree but as supercar fans we should support them and what they are trying to do for the industry and to be fair I think we should extend the courtesy to Vencer.
Although I'm not completely won over I have to commend Noble for a brilliant effort and a tremendous achievement (this is now turning into a Noble thread).
I don't think it's right to shoot down a new supercar before we even know much about it. They all need time to develop so should all be given a chance and you might disagree but as supercar fans we should support them and what they are trying to do for the industry and to be fair I think we should extend the courtesy to Vencer.
R11ysf said:
£250k for an LS engined, steel-framed car? Looks ok, nothing stunning but if I was looking for a car of this sort the Vencer wouldn't get a 2nd glance. It doesn't have the wow factor of a Koenigsegg (all comparisons stop at the doors) and it isn't that far advanced of where the TVR Typhon was. To be honest I'd rather have the TVR and £150k change.
The trouble is that when TVR actually bothered to work out how much the Typhon cost to build they arrived at over £130k back in 2005. Without some cost saving synergies of building the Le Mans cars and the general production of road cars that figure would have been even higher. Add in a profit margin and arguably they needed to sell then near the £200k level. As opposed to the £85k they originally announced. It is frightening to think how much it really costs to build these types of cars, even as analog experiences, when working in such small numbers!!!!
The Vencer Sarthe looks to me, like a business venture doomed to failure. They forecast one car per month sales which may be possible however Im not anew who will buy it against the established super cars.
I could be wrong but Id be surprised if the company survives more than two years unless it changes the target market.
I could be wrong but Id be surprised if the company survives more than two years unless it changes the target market.
zondaboy said:
After reading the comments that some of you made about the Noble M600 I've been learning more about the car and after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvQvA3EXLg from Top Gear USA I have a newfound admiration for the car.
Although I'm not completely won over I have to commend Noble for a brilliant effort and a tremendous achievement (this is now turning into a Noble thread).
I don't think it's right to shoot down a new supercar before we even know much about it. They all need time to develop so should all be given a chance and you might disagree but as supercar fans we should support them and what they are trying to do for the industry and to be fair I think we should extend the courtesy to Vencer.
Although I'm not completely won over I have to commend Noble for a brilliant effort and a tremendous achievement (this is now turning into a Noble thread).
I don't think it's right to shoot down a new supercar before we even know much about it. They all need time to develop so should all be given a chance and you might disagree but as supercar fans we should support them and what they are trying to do for the industry and to be fair I think we should extend the courtesy to Vencer.
To pursue your dream of building a modern day supercar must be one of the biggest headaches know to man!!!With the Noble, the backing and owner is Mr Dyson, so the pressure to turn a profit is not so great. He wanted to own a car manufacturer and be involved in the design, why? because he can!!
With Vencer, I don't know who is backing them, but wish them all the best.
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