Has BMW dropped a clanger with the M3?
Discussion
Harris:
Was the E30 M3 as good as they all said it was? A moot point, but on balance it probably was. The steering was sublime, the chassis had a superb blend of balance and grip and it looked superb. But the motor was coarse and brash and to out-drag a 325i it needed to be thrashed. As a road car, a 325i Sport with the optional LSD was probably a better bet, but for the obsessive few, the E30 was irresistible.
Was the E30 M3 as good as they all said it was? A moot point, but on balance it probably was. The steering was sublime, the chassis had a superb blend of balance and grip and it looked superb. But the motor was coarse and brash and to out-drag a 325i it needed to be thrashed. As a road car, a 325i Sport with the optional LSD was probably a better bet, but for the obsessive few, the E30 was irresistible.
DavidJG said:
Exactly this. I may be wrong, but my perception of the new M3 / M4 engine is that it's basically the 135 / 335 engine, but re-worked a bit. Previous M engines were completely bespoke and had a fabulous character, right the way from the E30 to the E90 there's something special about them. This one just seems to lack that character that made the M cars so good to drive.
DavidJG said:
Exactly this. I may be wrong, but my perception of the new M3 / M4 engine is that it's basically the 135 / 335 engine, but re-worked a bit. Previous M engines were completely bespoke and had a fabulous character, right the way from the E30 to the E90 there's something special about them. This one just seems to lack that character that made the M cars so good to drive.
The engine shares 75% of its components with the N55 engine on which it is based. The "new" 25% however includes a few major components like crankcase, pistons, crankshaft, cylinder heads, turbos, camshaft, oil system, valves, exhaust. I guess they are counting every nut bolt and washer to get that figure as all the major components are new as far as I can see. I think it's about as bespoke as any engine gets these days.
Echo comments about the traction control, what on earth was going there?
Wasn't that impressed when I drove it. Has its moments, has its good bits. But felt very everyday. No drama. Lots of respect for it and it would be great every day. But you'd hardly take it for a drive at the weekend.
Too fast as well, really.
Wasn't that impressed when I drove it. Has its moments, has its good bits. But felt very everyday. No drama. Lots of respect for it and it would be great every day. But you'd hardly take it for a drive at the weekend.
Too fast as well, really.
The JM said:
I don't trust any reviewer these days. I also think that modern cars can be good on a track but diabolical on British roads, that is how I felt about the M4.I test drove one earlier in the year with a friend who was thinking of getting one. I thought it was a good car, couldn't fault much tbh. But both of us found the traction control to nannyfied (they wouldn't let us turn it off) and although it was quick it didn't feel it, my e39 m5 feels quicker. Sales chap reckoned as tested the car we had was £68k, which to me seemed steep.
It's no secret how much I disliked ours. BMW have got this car very wrong IMO and it's just not a car that I found enjoyable at all.
It had it's good points (nice chassis/suspension and the great seats/driving position are a couple of standout items) but on the whole, the package just wasn't that strong.
The diabolical sound really is as bad as many say - I accept that sound qualities are subjective but in the context of what else is out there, I struggle to see how it can be seen as anything but poor. I actually found it embarrassing and even cars that share the same engine, such as the M135i, sound noticeably nicer. The outrageously intrusive traction control (even in the dry and in a straight line) means it might as well have 100bhp less as it can't effectively deploy what power it does have. And the interior quality which is very good in a 1-series and decent enough on a mid-range 3-series is most definitely not OK on £60k+ car. I won't go on, but it's fair to say the market thinks similar as people just don't appear to be buying them - the car I sold back to BMW 3 months ago is still for sale at considerably less than I was paid.
It had it's good points (nice chassis/suspension and the great seats/driving position are a couple of standout items) but on the whole, the package just wasn't that strong.
The diabolical sound really is as bad as many say - I accept that sound qualities are subjective but in the context of what else is out there, I struggle to see how it can be seen as anything but poor. I actually found it embarrassing and even cars that share the same engine, such as the M135i, sound noticeably nicer. The outrageously intrusive traction control (even in the dry and in a straight line) means it might as well have 100bhp less as it can't effectively deploy what power it does have. And the interior quality which is very good in a 1-series and decent enough on a mid-range 3-series is most definitely not OK on £60k+ car. I won't go on, but it's fair to say the market thinks similar as people just don't appear to be buying them - the car I sold back to BMW 3 months ago is still for sale at considerably less than I was paid.
It's funny how people can have complete different views on the same car. Not just the average Jo on here but also the motoring press - Sutcliffe and Harris for example.
I've had a E92 DCT M3 for 3 years and love it. I had a test drive of the new M4 yesterday and loved it also. The roads were greasy and it struggled to put the power down but so did my E92 with less torque. I am a long shot off a pro driver and maybe that's why I like the E92 and F82 as I've never driven any exotica and don't hang the back end out on roundabouts. I am wanting to change in March when mines 3 years old and I can't see any other car that tickles my fancy for similar money except for a used 991 carrera S. I need 4 seats for the kids and like my toys which aren't standard in the Pork so think a 991 has too many drawbacks for me. Driven a 2012 C63 AMG and that did struggle to put the power down and I didn't really get on with the gearbox.
I've read reviews about people slating the sound of the F80 and I quite liked it as it's different. Everyone refers to the E46 and E90 M's as sounding awesome. I thought the E46 was poor in the sound department and my current E92 is ok and only sounds really nice when redlining or blipping on the downshifts.
I've had a E92 DCT M3 for 3 years and love it. I had a test drive of the new M4 yesterday and loved it also. The roads were greasy and it struggled to put the power down but so did my E92 with less torque. I am a long shot off a pro driver and maybe that's why I like the E92 and F82 as I've never driven any exotica and don't hang the back end out on roundabouts. I am wanting to change in March when mines 3 years old and I can't see any other car that tickles my fancy for similar money except for a used 991 carrera S. I need 4 seats for the kids and like my toys which aren't standard in the Pork so think a 991 has too many drawbacks for me. Driven a 2012 C63 AMG and that did struggle to put the power down and I didn't really get on with the gearbox.
I've read reviews about people slating the sound of the F80 and I quite liked it as it's different. Everyone refers to the E46 and E90 M's as sounding awesome. I thought the E46 was poor in the sound department and my current E92 is ok and only sounds really nice when redlining or blipping on the downshifts.
I think M3s have grown in size and in their market with all other cars, so really the current M5 is effectively an M7. The M3 is an M5, and crucially, in spirit and size a 1M or the new M2 is what an M3 should be IMO.
My current M135i has similar dimensions and tyre contact patches to the E36 M3 Evo. I think this is a wieldy size for a car. The new M3 is huge and far too refined, although I partially felt that way about the E90 too.
In fact, I'd prefer one of these M140i V8 1 series instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNxsZWycfs
My current M135i has similar dimensions and tyre contact patches to the E36 M3 Evo. I think this is a wieldy size for a car. The new M3 is huge and far too refined, although I partially felt that way about the E90 too.
In fact, I'd prefer one of these M140i V8 1 series instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNxsZWycfs
bennyboysvuk said:
I think M3s have grown in size and in their market with all other cars, so really the current M5 is effectively an M7. The M3 is an M5, and crucially, in spirit and size a 1M or the new M2 is what an M3 should be IMO.
This is the way I always have seen it too, by the way I hope you are enjoying the new motor. Patrick Bateman said:
Where does this 'completely bespoke' myth come from? It's the exception (off the top of my head, S65 and S85, not sure what else without delving deeper) and not the rule.
Regardless the S65 is enough to give the new M3/4 issues for those who the way the power is delivered is more important than what is delivered. I'm a serial BMW and M buyer but when I got in the new M3 and heard the noise I had a WTF moment and simply cannot understand what they were thinking.
You only have to look at the 100+ un sold demos to see that they have an issue.
Wills2 said:
Patrick Bateman said:
Where does this 'completely bespoke' myth come from? It's the exception (off the top of my head, S65 and S85, not sure what else without delving deeper) and not the rule.
Regardless the S65 is enough to give the new M3/4 issues for those who the way the power is delivered is more important than what is delivered. I'm a serial BMW and M buyer but when I got in the new M3 and heard the noise I had a WTF moment and simply cannot understand what they were thinking.
You only have to look at the 100+ un sold demos to see that they have an issue.
if Porsche can do an engine for the 991 like they have then there was no reason why BMW couldn't have followed suit and dropped a screamer in to the M3 M4.The Ethos has changed somewhat and you would imagine it has been designed with the US tuner market in mind.
Engines like the S54 an 65 were expensive masterpieces of engineering and they were the reason we all went running to the dealer with our deposits (even having not driven them!)
The engine was always the centre piece of the car and now the focal point has been removed it has exposed other weaknesses.
I still like the car and admire it but I just don't 'want' one.
Engines like the S54 an 65 were expensive masterpieces of engineering and they were the reason we all went running to the dealer with our deposits (even having not driven them!)
The engine was always the centre piece of the car and now the focal point has been removed it has exposed other weaknesses.
I still like the car and admire it but I just don't 'want' one.
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