Planning a European road trip...

[RS Grant]

...has anyone done one before?!

Seriously though; I've read a lot of threads on here which have been very helpful, so thank you all for that.

I've wanted to tour around the alps for ages and have decided to bite the bullet next year and go for it. The trip will also act as a baptism for my Golf R which is due around May time!! I'm planning to take this trip at the beginning of July with one of my mates, potentially others, but definitely two of us.

Clicky Google Link

If you guys could give me any pointers about what is/isn't going to be enjoyable (apart from the first leg!!) and if there are any roads that are fairly close to our route which should be investigated instead then that'd be fantastic.

Here is a rough guide that I typed up for my friend, the prices are very much worst case and there are no petrol/living costs included either.


Day 1
Ferry arrives @ 9am
Amsterdam to Baden-Baden: 380 miles (6 Hours)
Holiday Inn @ Baden-Baden: £100

Day 2
Baden-Baden to Bien/Bern: 185 miles (5.5 Hours)
Best Western @ Bien: £100

Day 3
Bien/Bern to Como: 170 miles (5 Hours)
Albergo Paradiso Sul Lago: £100

Day 4
Como to Imst: 190 miles (6 Hours)
Hotel Zum Hirschen: £100

Day 5
Imst to Stuttgart: 180 miles (5.5 Hours)
Le Meridien Stuttgart: £100

Day 6
Porsche Museum: £20
Stuttgart to Adenau: 210 miles (6 hours)
Ring Hotel Blaue Ecke: £80

Day 7
Nurburgring Track Time: £200
Nurburgring Museum: £60
Ring Hotel Blaue Ecke: £80

Day 8
Adenau to Spa: 100 miles (2.5 Hours)
Spa Track Time: £300
Hotel Verviers Van Der Valk: £80

Day 9
Verviers to Amsterdam: 200 miles (6 Hours)
Ferry to Newcastle @ 17:00hrs


The duration of the trip is aiming for a maximum of 10 days.. which is why the trip from Amsterdam to Baden-Baden has been left as a big drive to 'get it out of the way' if you like. I'm not sure it shows on that link, but we're planning to use the A3 for that section of the trip. The rest of the trip has also had 'avoid motorways' clicked so that it combines the best chance of taking in the scenery and the worst case travel time. If we find that we're tired or have lost time for some reason, then switching to a motorway and recalculating our route should hopefully make us some time back... plus, we still have another days grace with our 10-day target if we need to wave the white flag at some point and stay an extra day at some point.


Cheers,
Grant

[mon the fish]

I stayed in Tubingen, not far from Stuttgart/Baden-Baden, lovely old uni town with a nice beer hall in it, castle, old buildings etc

[dcb]

RS Grant said:

Amsterdam to Baden-Baden: 380 miles (6 Hours)

You'll be lucky to do this distance in that time in a Golf.

8-10 hours nearer the mark. Food & toilet breaks matter.

You do know what B-B is like ? The tinkle of sherry glasses
and the hard stares of the pensioners is about as exciting as
it gets.

RS Grant said:

Day 3
Bien/Bern to Como: 170 miles (5 Hours)

This also looks optimistic. I think you are taking the boring
lorry route ? Suggest take more time and do a few Alpine passes
( not the Brenner).

Also, Switzerland is ultra expensive and has it's own money.
Take twice as much Swiss money as you think you'll need.

RS Grant said:

Como to Imst: 190 miles (6 Hours)

I've been to Imst a few times. Zell am See is nicer, but Imst is ok.
Try to avoid the South end of town where all the tyre dealers and
used car dealers hang out.

RS Grant said:

Imst to Stuttgart: 180 miles (5.5 Hours)

Stuttgart is the German version of Birmingham. 'Nuff said.
The A8 autobahn is wall to wall roadworks and will be for many years
to come.

RS Grant said:

Stuttgart to Adenau: 210 miles (6 hours)

You missed out the Teknik museum at Sinsheim.
It's a lot more interesting than the Porsche Museum
at Zuffenhausen, because it's got a larger range of stock.

RS Grant said:

but we're planning to use the A3 for that section of the trip.

The A3 is mostly limited to 80 mph and so gets used a lot by the
Dutch caravaners.

The A5, further east, is almost all unlimited and so the caravanners
tend to avoid it.

RS Grant said:

The rest of the trip has also had 'avoid motorways' clicked so that it combines the best chance of taking in the scenery and the worst case travel time.

You'd be mad to miss out on the German motorway system.
A textbook example of how to do it right.

[jock mcsporran]

Just suggestions, if it was me that was doing it.

Day 3 Bern via Interlaken to Grimselpass, Furkapass, Tremola Pass (the old cobbled one), and down the side of Lago Maggiore or direct to Como depending on time/distance.

Day 4 - Up through Lugano to San Bernardino (take the pass, avoid the tunnel), head back south via Splugen Pass, east to Silvaplana, Bernina Pass to Livigno, through the tunnel (bit boring but no other way through), Offenpass to Umbrail Pass to Stelvio and carry on with your route.

Can't add anything on Austria I'm afraid. Others can probably offer better options.

[NormalWisdom]

Given the first "thing" you seem to be doing is Porsche in Stuttgart, why not go there in one day? I have driven Berkshire to Munich and back 4 times this year - 13 hours driving (765 miles). Stuttgart is 11 hours for me via Brussels, Cologne etc....... More time to hoon around the Alps which is really what you want to be doing

[jock mcsporran]

NormalWisdom said:

Given the first "thing" you seem to be doing is Porsche in Stuttgart, why not go there in one day? I have driven Berkshire to Munich and back 4 times this year - 13 hours driving (765 miles). Stuttgart is 11 hours for me via Brussels, Cologne etc....... More time to hoon around the Alps which is really what you want to be doing

^^^^^ Agreed. There's only really two days in the Alps and a lot of time faffing about in Germany.
Use the motorway for the long stretch as a means to an end. You can easily get from Rotterdam to Bern or Interlaken in a day (a long one but it's not a hard drive. I used to do Glasgow to Pisa in a day when I was young and in love, these days I split it in Switzerland).
Similarly, Austria to Stuttgart in the morning (get an early start), do the museum, carry on to Adenau.
That's two days saved that can be spent exploring the Alpine passes, Grossglockner, Slovenia, further west to Route Napoleon, Gorge du Verdon, etc, etc.

[dcb]

dcb said:

The A3 is mostly limited to 80 mph and so gets used a lot by the
Dutch caravaners.

The A5, further east, is almost all unlimited and so the caravanners
tend to avoid it.

I got the A3 mixed up with the A61.

The A61 is the west bank of the Rhine Dutch caravanners route,
not the A3. Apologies for the mistake.

A3 fine, A5 fine. Couple of things to note is that the A3, on the east bank
of the Rhine, has many bridges, so doing over 120mph in
the many crosswinds is somewhat challenging.

Lots of the A3 is only two lanes each way, so not much chance
of doing much more than 120 mph past the lorries, but I see you are
in a Golf, so that probably won't affect you very much.

[Wozy68]

NormalWisdom said:

Given the first "thing" you seem to be doing is Porsche in Stuttgart, why not go there in one day? I have driven Berkshire to Munich and back 4 times this year - 13 hours driving (765 miles). Stuttgart is 11 hours for me via Brussels, Cologne etc....... More time to hoon around the Alps which is really what you want to be doing

^^^^^ Agreed also. I've driven Stuttgart, ( via a stop off at the Ring) back to Worcestershire in a twenty year old car in a day. Around 760 miles and I drove it no probs. I was in the pub by 9.30 supping a beer.

You don't seem to be doing many miles in a day IMO

[RS Grant]

dcb said:

RS Grant said:

Amsterdam to Baden-Baden: 380 miles (6 Hours)

You'll be lucky to do this distance in that time in a Golf.

8-10 hours nearer the mark. Food & toilet breaks matter.

You do know what B-B is like ? The tinkle of sherry glasses
and the hard stares of the pensioners is about as exciting as
it gets.

In it's defence, it is a little more brisk than a standard Golf.

...but I don't know any of these roads I've listed, just trying to organise a fun trip with epic views and really nice roads to drive on. Regarding the accommodation stops I've put down, they're by no means set in stone, but they are the general area, maybe c15 mile at most from the route.

Is there no chance of averaging c65mph on the motorways in Germany then??

dcb said:

RS Grant said:

Day 3
Bien/Bern to Como: 170 miles (5 Hours)

This also looks optimistic. I think you are taking the boring
lorry route ? Suggest take more time and do a few Alpine passes
( not the Brenner).

Also, Switzerland is ultra expensive and has it's own money.
Take twice as much Swiss money as you think you'll need.

Appreciate the advice regarding Switzerland, is it pricey for petrol too or just accommodation/food/'refreshments' etc??

What sort of passes should I be aiming for?? I'm working on an updated route which I'll stick up and see what you guys on here think of it. I'm a total novice when it comes to planning a European/Alps drive, so probably making some pretty 'newbie' errors... which I apologise for.

dcb said:

RS Grant said:

Imst to Stuttgart: 180 miles (5.5 Hours)

Stuttgart is the German version of Birmingham. 'Nuff said.
The A8 autobahn is wall to wall roadworks and will be for many years
to come.

I wasn't planning to use the A8 for this bit of the trip as far as I know, it seems like a less major route, the only Autobahn sections of the trip will be from Amsterdam to Stuttgart on the way down and Stuttgart to Adenau on the way up.

Is Birmingham not on the up as far as culture goes...

dcb said:

RS Grant said:

Stuttgart to Adenau: 210 miles (6 hours)

You missed out the Teknik museum at Sinsheim.
It's a lot more interesting than the Porsche Museum
at Zuffenhausen, because it's got a larger range of stock.

Thanks for the heads up about the Teknik museum, had a look at their site and it does look to be worth a visit.. being really into Porsche, I think Teknik would be an addition to the Porsche Museum.


Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

jock mcsporran said:

Just suggestions, if it was me that was doing it.

Day 3 Bern via Interlaken to Grimselpass, Furkapass, Tremola Pass (the old cobbled one), and down the side of Lago Maggiore or direct to Como depending on time/distance.

Day 4 - Up through Lugano to San Bernardino (take the pass, avoid the tunnel), head back south via Splugen Pass, east to Silvaplana, Bernina Pass to Livigno, through the tunnel (bit boring but no other way through), Offenpass to Umbrail Pass to Stelvio and carry on with your route.

Can't add anything on Austria I'm afraid. Others can probably offer better options.

Thanks for the input, I have revised the route and think that it's taken in quite a few of the points which you've mentioned. I will stick up a link to it once I've replied to everyone.


Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

jock mcsporran said:

NormalWisdom said:

Given the first "thing" you seem to be doing is Porsche in Stuttgart, why not go there in one day? I have driven Berkshire to Munich and back 4 times this year - 13 hours driving (765 miles). Stuttgart is 11 hours for me via Brussels, Cologne etc....... More time to hoon around the Alps which is really what you want to be doing

^^^^^ Agreed. There's only really two days in the Alps and a lot of time faffing about in Germany.
Use the motorway for the long stretch as a means to an end. You can easily get from Rotterdam to Bern or Interlaken in a day (a long one but it's not a hard drive. I used to do Glasgow to Pisa in a day when I was young and in love, these days I split it in Switzerland).
Similarly, Austria to Stuttgart in the morning (get an early start), do the museum, carry on to Adenau.
That's two days saved that can be spent exploring the Alpine passes, Grossglockner, Slovenia, further west to Route Napoleon, Gorge du Verdon, etc, etc.

Totally agree with both of you, the run through Germany is exactly that, a means to an end and will be why I take as much Autobahn/Motorway as possible to dispatch it as quickly as possible.


Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

dcb said:

dcb said:

The A3 is mostly limited to 80 mph and so gets used a lot by the
Dutch caravaners.

The A5, further east, is almost all unlimited and so the caravanners
tend to avoid it.

I got the A3 mixed up with the A61.

The A61 is the west bank of the Rhine Dutch caravanners route,
not the A3. Apologies for the mistake.

A3 fine, A5 fine. Couple of things to note is that the A3, on the east bank
of the Rhine, has many bridges, so doing over 120mph in
the many crosswinds is somewhat challenging.

Lots of the A3 is only two lanes each way, so not much chance
of doing much more than 120 mph past the lorries, but I see you are
in a Golf, so that probably won't affect you very much.

Haha, has a Golf done you a misdeed at some point??

If the opportunity presents itself, then I will happily stretch the cars legs and investigate how accurate the speed limiter is..

Sounds like quite an open road if one is able to be blasting past traffic at those kind of speeds. I can only assume that German road manners are far better than we're used to in the UK?!!


Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

Wozy68 said:

^^^^^ Agreed also. I've driven Stuttgart, ( via a stop off at the Ring) back to Worcestershire in a twenty year old car in a day. Around 760 miles and I drove it no probs. I was in the pub by 9.30 supping a beer.

You don't seem to be doing many miles in a day IMO

...from reading the various threads on here, it seems easy for a 'newbie' to over estimate how much distance they can travel in a day. Also, I've wanted to do this for quite a long time, so I do want to stop and take in the scenery and roads without tearing through them like my pubes are on fire because I've been held up and still have X number of miles to cover if I'm to stay on schedule.

Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

Here is the revised run from Germany, over the alps and then back to Germany.

Version 2

...seems to be quite a good run, what do you think??


Cheers,
Grant

[dcb]

RS Grant said:

Here is the revised run from Germany, over the alps and then back to Germany.

Version 2

...seems to be quite a good run, what do you think??

There seems to be a lot of faffing about on little roads in
the Black Forest.

Different people are different, but I can't see much fun in that.

It will be very like being back in the UK. I can't seem much point
in travelling all that way, then doing like at home and missing the special bits nearby.

Something like going to a good fish restaurant, then having steak'n'chips ;->

Germany is noted for it's autobahns - best use them to get to somewhere special.
The A81 Stuttgart to Singen is a good road. Mr Ruf and his wife get to 200 mph there ;->

Far more interesting country roads than the Black Forest
are in Switzerland and Austria on the Alps.

I find this site useful.

http://alpineroads.com/alpmap.php

I've done all the Austrian top ten, most of the next ten and some
of the Swiss ones. The Stelvio is popular and over rated.

[NormalWisdom]

RS Grant said:

Here is the revised run from Germany, over the alps and then back to Germany.

Version 2

...seems to be quite a good run, what do you think??


Cheers,
Grant

No point in just going to Como town, no point at all. The drive up the West side of the lake is good but Garda is far superior. I would miss that leg out to Como completely. Stay overnight in Aprica (just East of Sondrio) get back on route at St Moritz via the Bernino Pass (did this a couple of months back - Really good).

[RS Grant]

dcb said:

There seems to be a lot of faffing about on little roads in
the Black Forest.

Different people are different, but I can't see much fun in that.

It will be very like being back in the UK. I can't seem much point
in travelling all that way, then doing like at home and missing the special bits nearby.

Something like going to a good fish restaurant, then having steak'n'chips ;->

Germany is noted for it's autobahns - best use them to get to somewhere special.
The A81 Stuttgart to Singen is a good road. Mr Ruf and his wife get to 200 mph there ;->

Haha, ahhhh, now I see why you're not exactly enamoured by a Golf R... you're piloting a Ruf!!

I had added the Black Forest stuff because of a thread I looked at on here. However, I enjoy more than an occasional drive through the Scottish Highlands since I'm lucky enough to have them on my doorstep-ish; so if you think it'll be similar to that, then it might well be better to skip that part and experience the A81.

dcb said:

I find this site useful.

http://alpineroads.com/alpmap.php

I've done all the Austrian top ten, most of the next ten and some
of the Swiss ones. The Stelvio is popular and over rated.

Thank you, that looks to be a very good link. I'll have a look at it in more depth later on... would say that Stelvio made it onto my route because of the scenery as well as the roads, some of the photographs from the pass are lovely and something which I'd like to see for myself. But I'm expecting it to be quite busy in July, so maybe not much opportunity to cut loose/hoon.


Cheers,
Grant

[RS Grant]

NormalWisdom said:

No point in just going to Como town, no point at all. The drive up the West side of the lake is good but Garda is far superior. I would miss that leg out to Como completely. Stay overnight in Aprica (just East of Sondrio) get back on route at St Moritz via the Bernino Pass (did this a couple of months back - Really good).

I agree actually, maybe more suited to a tour of the Italian Lakes at some point in the future, so it's been cut from the route too. I've added a couple of other passes instead, you're going to be sick of links soon!!

Version 3

...that obviously still included the BF, but I am working out any highway/AB/motorway routes separately just now.


Cheers,
Grant

[Kateg28]

RS Grant said:

Thank you, that looks to be a very good link. I'll have a look at it in more depth later on... would say that Stelvio made it onto my route because of the scenery as well as the roads, some of the photographs from the pass are lovely and something which I'd like to see for myself. But I'm expecting it to be quite busy in July, so maybe not much opportunity to cut loose/hoon.


Cheers,
Grant

The first time I went up the Stelvio was in the month of August but it was late in the evening about 7p.m. (we were staying in a hotel at the top) and we were mostly on our own. Say maybe 3 or 4 other vehicles during our climb. The following year we did it one morning (coming down as we had come up the other side) and we had the world and his wife, mostly on bicycles, with us. The bicycles make it really difficult.

If you can, do the climb late in the day, awesome. All the scenery, beauty and fabulous roads but just you.

Link to my road trip which had a few, ahem, issues.
http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[jock mcsporran]

RS Grant said:

Version 3

...that obviously still included the BF, but I am working out any highway/AB/motorway routes separately just now.


Cheers,
Grant

Where you have 'L' you are taking the tunnel rather than the pass (San Bernardino). Have a look at the wiggly road to the left of your route. It rejoins on the other side of the tunnel.