Discussion
Hi all,
I'm considering a facelifted W204 C-class vs a F30 320D as a replacement for my A4.
Not sure if I can justify the cost of the C250 over a C220.
My local dealer doesn't have a manual C220 and C250 so I'm not able to drive them back to back.
I'd like to compare torque curves to assess the performance gap. Anyone seen these anywhere?
Anyone driven both cars back to back?
I'm considering a facelifted W204 C-class vs a F30 320D as a replacement for my A4.
Not sure if I can justify the cost of the C250 over a C220.
My local dealer doesn't have a manual C220 and C250 so I'm not able to drive them back to back.
I'd like to compare torque curves to assess the performance gap. Anyone seen these anywhere?
Anyone driven both cars back to back?
I have a C250 CDI, which is nearly at the end of its 3 year lease.
I have had a few mechanical issues...; it broke down on the first day I owned it, then again a week later. Then, after 2 years it had a new head gasket. I think it must have been a bit of a friday afternoon build. All of this was sorted out very quickly though, and obviously under warranty.
Despite all that, I think it's a really good engine. Ok, it sounds a bit gruff, but it has all the power you need for day to day driving and safe overtaking, and yet on a long steady run will happily return 55-60 mpg.
I have had a few mechanical issues...; it broke down on the first day I owned it, then again a week later. Then, after 2 years it had a new head gasket. I think it must have been a bit of a friday afternoon build. All of this was sorted out very quickly though, and obviously under warranty.
Despite all that, I think it's a really good engine. Ok, it sounds a bit gruff, but it has all the power you need for day to day driving and safe overtaking, and yet on a long steady run will happily return 55-60 mpg.
Very true, someone in MB needs a little retraining if they are short on technical nous.
C200 Cdi is the same mechanically as C220 Cdi except for the engine map. Still not quite sure why they don't both reach the same figure when remapped themselves? Maybe they do....
C250 is a very different twin turbo beast, and a lovely one at that. Shame to hear about reliability, but that is some impressive figures and potential for more from a 2150cc diesel lump.
C200 Cdi is the same mechanically as C220 Cdi except for the engine map. Still not quite sure why they don't both reach the same figure when remapped themselves? Maybe they do....
C250 is a very different twin turbo beast, and a lovely one at that. Shame to hear about reliability, but that is some impressive figures and potential for more from a 2150cc diesel lump.
windydog said:
Very true, someone in MB needs a little retraining if they are short on technical nous.
C200 Cdi is the same mechanically as C220 Cdi except for the engine map. Still not quite sure why they don't both reach the same figure when remapped themselves? Maybe they do....
Indeed someone does!C200 Cdi is the same mechanically as C220 Cdi except for the engine map. Still not quite sure why they don't both reach the same figure when remapped themselves? Maybe they do....
Its the C220cdi and C250cdi that are mechanically the same, the C200cdi is the single turbo.
Its the OM651 engine if you want to look up and clarify for yourself OP since we all cant seem to agree!
yellowbentines said:
Indeed someone does!
Its the C220cdi and C250cdi that are mechanically the same, the C200cdi is the single turbo.
Its the OM651 engine if you want to look up and clarify for yourself OP since we all cant seem to agree!
Wow, that is some confidence there, i'm not going to agree unless some chap either shows me a photo of both, or MB declare it. Granted it says so on Wikipedia but I give you the credit that you wouldn't dream of proverbials on the block because of this speculative and editable site. Its the C220cdi and C250cdi that are mechanically the same, the C200cdi is the single turbo.
Its the OM651 engine if you want to look up and clarify for yourself OP since we all cant seem to agree!
But yet if I try and order a new turbo for a 220Cdi, I order the same part number as the 200Cdi of Garrett GTB1752V. Who's right, there is a beer riding on this.
Edited by windydog on Thursday 20th November 11:51
windydog said:
Wow, that is some confidence there. Benefit of the doubt, but prove it please.
First time I've ever heard that the 250 is the same as the 200, and that the 220 is twin turbo.
Think this link should show it (possibly) First time I've ever heard that the 250 is the same as the 200, and that the 220 is twin turbo.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedking...
Well noted, but this is for a new model. Any spec sheets specifying W204?
There appears to be something of a spec change through life here so date dependent, with many references to a single stage from a 220 Cdi, and many more recent ones declaring a two stage turbo charger for the 220Cdi.
Can everyone be right or wrong, if so there seem to be a lot of people in one wrong camp, myself included? Plainly some photos or soem clarity would help here.
There appears to be something of a spec change through life here so date dependent, with many references to a single stage from a 220 Cdi, and many more recent ones declaring a two stage turbo charger for the 220Cdi.
Can everyone be right or wrong, if so there seem to be a lot of people in one wrong camp, myself included? Plainly some photos or soem clarity would help here.
Edited by windydog on Thursday 20th November 12:27
windydog said:
Wow, that is some confidence there
No more confidence than you suggesting that Mercedes themselves need retraining and don't know their own cars 
Anyway, on a more useful note:
Autocar - http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-die...
Parkers - http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/mercedes-ben...
Greenmotor.co.uk (lentil eating journalists) - http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2013/03/mercedes-benz-...
Guybird (some other journalist) - http://guybird.com/articles/have-your-cake-and-eat...
carbuyer.co.uk - http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/mercedes/cclass/...
I'm bored now, there's loads of info out there that tell you the C220cdi is twin turbo, whilst the spec sheet noted above is for the latest model, it can't be a coincidence it has the same power, torque etc for any other reason than it's the same twin turbo lump? I'll eat humble pie if I'm mistaken, but I'll need some proof of course
I had a W204 C220cdi, 400Nm of torque, it never felt underpowered, of course you can never have too much power....
Edited by yellowbentines on Thursday 20th November 13:31
Consider myself chastised for my over eagerness there, fair point by me conceded in the original suggestion, if not the technical accuracy which frankly doesn't really matter. Peace brother.
What is not in question is that a 400nm figure is indeed pretty damn good, especially when related to a fairly average 280nm in the 200 Cdi that I am struggling with.
Plenty of people and evidence say one turbo, plenty of evidence there to suggest two for the 220. Given that the W204 is an evolved beast and has been subject to change, then there exists a possibility that both are right. Sleeping dogs and all that....
What is not in question is that a 400nm figure is indeed pretty damn good, especially when related to a fairly average 280nm in the 200 Cdi that I am struggling with.
Plenty of people and evidence say one turbo, plenty of evidence there to suggest two for the 220. Given that the W204 is an evolved beast and has been subject to change, then there exists a possibility that both are right. Sleeping dogs and all that....
windydog said:
Consider myself chastised for my over eagerness there, fair point by me conceded in the original suggestion, if not the technical accuracy which frankly doesn't really matter. Peace brother.
No. You're doing it wrong. We're supposed to argue until someone breaks and starts becoming abusive, a mod jumps in, bans everyone and locks the thread. Its the Pistonheads way.It doesn't actually matter how many turbos it has - even if it is 2...
- I've had the previous incarnation of the 220 cdi engine in an E-Class, it's 2148cc (OM646) instead of 2143cc (OM651) and is definitely single turbo, it makes roughly the same bhp and torque and is just less efficient, but both go about their business in a similar way, though the gearbox changes along the way make a bigger difference to the drive and economy.I'd personally say the 220 cdi is adequate, but only adequate. If buying again I'd go for the 250 or 350 if budget allows.
Well I thoroughly look forward to some of that, indeed I have not arrived unnoticed on the current A45 thread after upsetting the OP with something I would blatantly say to his person. Chris Harris makes a well noted observation about this in his cheerio speech, but such is cars I suppose.
As for unf**king the thread, I too am now thinking I got the wrong car and should have gone for a 250Cdi, let alone a 220 which would have given me more options, but hope rests in the land of the tuners who can perhaps sort me out. Either that or I go out and just get the 250, for not a lot more, hope the Mrs doesn't notice the badge change on the back, and be done with it.
As for unf**king the thread, I too am now thinking I got the wrong car and should have gone for a 250Cdi, let alone a 220 which would have given me more options, but hope rests in the land of the tuners who can perhaps sort me out. Either that or I go out and just get the 250, for not a lot more, hope the Mrs doesn't notice the badge change on the back, and be done with it.
Can I apologise for my disinformation re Turbos ,ill slink back to where I belong with my 330d (shock horror) 
and as a pennance have this on me ,
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/engine/96914-differ...
and as a pennance have this on me ,
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/engine/96914-differ...
Edited by smashy on Thursday 20th November 23:37
Here we go...
No you can't apologise Smashy, you were 100% right on your post suggesting the 250 was twin turbo, it is unquestionably.
The fun stuff is working out how many stages the 220 has, which frankly is still up for grabs depending on what date their car was made in the W204 run. Undeniably there are 220s out there with twin turbos, in fact I even found a picture schematic of the (Borg Warner) 2 stage for a 220, but a fair proportion of the population believing their 220 is only single stage (Garret).
A photo would be lovely from any 220 owners out there.
I'm still trawling the classifieds, as blatantly I would prefer to have a 250.
No you can't apologise Smashy, you were 100% right on your post suggesting the 250 was twin turbo, it is unquestionably.
The fun stuff is working out how many stages the 220 has, which frankly is still up for grabs depending on what date their car was made in the W204 run. Undeniably there are 220s out there with twin turbos, in fact I even found a picture schematic of the (Borg Warner) 2 stage for a 220, but a fair proportion of the population believing their 220 is only single stage (Garret).
A photo would be lovely from any 220 owners out there.
I'm still trawling the classifieds, as blatantly I would prefer to have a 250.
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