Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

Author
Discussion

VladD

7,853 posts

264 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm sure quite a few PHers do, I just wonder if you looked at all of the manual cars bought, what percentage of them have ever been H&Td.

Ian_UK1

1,514 posts

193 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agreed. I made the mistake of choosing PDK 4 years ago. My free choice - I'd heard 'all the good things' about PDK and decided to go with the new tech and new way of doing things.

It's the last time I'll make that mistake.

What the attraction is about driving a computer (that's been programmed to piss you off as much as possible) I simply can't fathom. It goes against everything that makes driving enjoyable (assuming you really like driving for driving's sake, and you want to become the best driver you can be).

And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it.


ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
quotequote all
Ian_UK1 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agreed. I made the mistake of choosing PDK 4 years ago. My free choice - I'd heard 'all the good things' about PDK and decided to go with the new tech and new way of doing things.

It's the last time I'll make that mistake.

What the attraction is about driving a computer (that's been programmed to piss you off as much as possible) I simply can't fathom. It goes against everything that makes driving enjoyable (assuming you really like driving for driving's sake, and you want to become the best driver you can be).

And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it.
2% difference or so in mass, isn't it? I doubt that makes much difference at all, to be honest. As I have said before, it is a fat man vs a thin man in the drivers seat (in fact the effect is presumably less because it is lower down than that in the car and could even conceivably lower its COG).

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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Ian_UK1 said:
And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it.
Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean).

Re the vid, surely all that proves is that the racing driver is quicker than the rally driver on a race track? We needed to see them swap cars immediately and do it again - and then maybe take both cars to a rally stage and see which or who is quicker then? smile

VladD

7,853 posts

264 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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heebeegeetee said:
Ian_UK1 said:
And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it.
Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean).

Re the vid, surely all that proves is that the racing driver is quicker than the rally driver on a race track? We needed to see them swap cars immediately and do it again - and then maybe take both cars to a rally stage and see which or who is quicker then? smile
Does the PDK accelerate faster because it has a closer ratio gearbox?

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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VladD said:
Does the PDK accelerate faster because it has a closer ratio gearbox?
I thought it got off the line quicker - that's why they had to do it over a flying lap. If they did a standing start (as the majority of races are) or tried a traffic light GP start (the far more likely scenario for any road car, I would have thought) then the pdk is gone while the manual driver is still faffing with the clutch.

I don't know which car (or care) is genuinely quicker over a lap, but in that vid it had to be skewed by not doing a standing start and the drivers didn't then swap cars to eliminate their respective differences (it would be impossible for them to be identical, wouldn't it?) so I say that the vid is definitely not proof of anything. smile

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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VladD said:
It does make you wonder how many people who buy a car with the manual box do ever get round to heal and toeing.
rolleyes

TDT

4,910 posts

118 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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heebeegeetee said:
I thought it got off the line quicker - that's why they had to do it over a flying lap. If they did a standing start (as the majority of races are) or tried a traffic light GP start (the far more likely scenario for any road car, I would have thought) then the pdk is gone while the manual driver is still faffing with the clutch.

I don't know which car (or care) is genuinely quicker over a lap, but in that vid it had to be skewed by not doing a standing start and the drivers didn't then swap cars to eliminate their respective differences (it would be impossible for them to be identical, wouldn't it?) so I say that the vid is definitely not proof of anything. smile
This - perfectly.

Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled, when countless other video reviews also anecdotally always suggest that "the pdk would probably be quicker but manual gives you a greater level of old school involvement"

A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder.

Trev450

Original Poster:

6,314 posts

171 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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TDT said:
Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled,
A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder.
The term 'proof' was said very much tongue in cheek when naming this post. smile

TDT

4,910 posts

118 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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Trev450 said:
TDT said:
Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled,
A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder.
The term 'proof' was said very much tongue in cheek when naming this post. smile
lol, I know - but there are a lot of people actually putting stake into the findings of the video. Like I said great for a debate. wink

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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heebeegeetee said:
Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean).
but we have come to say the PDK does NOT accelerates faster, it is in fact slower due to the extra mass, it changes gear faster that's all.

it is a tough one over a lap and imo it depends on the track.

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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Is the pdk also not faster due to the computer controlled clutch, as in a dsg? I'm thinking of the Autocar film with the Golf, how on standing starts the computer controlled clutch was always faster 0-60 (in conjunction with traction control?) and returned consistent times, compared to a human-operated clutch which/who was slower and less consistent, and that's with a driver that's vastly more experienced than all of us?

J12KJR

2,860 posts

242 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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For them to be mechanically identical surely they should have the same size wheels and the same tyres and yet the manual has P Zeros on larger wheels than the PDK which is on Goodyear Eagles.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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I would take the good years over the pzero any way.
So that makes the manual even faster lol

SkinnyP

1,411 posts

148 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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The difference between a PDK and manual car could be gained or lost simply by having a big st before starting your journey.

Personally though I find PDK difficult to drive for the following reasons although what I find most fascinating is that it achieves the impossible task of making a 320bhp sports car feel lethargic.

In normal mode it keeps the revs too low and labours the engine, so I put it sport but it still shifts up when I don’t want it to and then you have to put up with jerky gear changes.

Sports+ can be too far the other way, and I don’t have the patience to drive a car using the paddles.

If I wanted to drive an automatic I’d take a V8 and a torque converter any day of the week, that’ll be the Cayenne S then.

Oh and one last thing, the engine note sounds so much better with a manual box wink

Ozzie Osmond said:
SkinnyP said:
PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle.
Have you driven a PDK on Sport+? I have, and honestly believe it would leave me for dead in my manual car.
Yes I've driven both PDK extensively with both the 2.7 and 34 and yes I've tried sport+ but I don't see what the fuss is all about; Sport+ can't do anything that a manual can't and you don't have to faff around with any buttons.

I intend to take the Cayman to the Nurgburgring in the not too distant future, and I would like to see a BTG time in the high sevens. I also expect to spend most of the lap in 3rd gear, with a brief excursion into 2nd, 4th and maybe 5th in two or three places, PDK would be of no benefit here.

anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sound deadening, in a Porsche? They must have forgot to install some in my Cayman wink


Edited by SkinnyP on Tuesday 18th November 21:26

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
quotequote all
SkinnyP said:
The difference between a PDK and manual car could be gained or lost simply by having a big st before starting your journey.

Personally though I find PDK difficult to drive for the following reasons although what I find most fascinating is that it achieves the impossible task of making a 320bhp sports car feel lethargic.

In normal mode it keeps the revs too low and labours the engine, so I put it sport but it still shifts up when I don’t want it to and then you have to put up with jerky gear changes.

Sports+ can be too far the other way, and I don’t have the patience to drive a car using the paddles.

If I wanted to drive an automatic I’d take a V8 and a torque converter any day of the week, that’ll be the Cayenne S then.

Oh and what last thing, the engine note sounds so much better with a manual box wink

Ozzie Osmond said:
SkinnyP said:
PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle.
Have you driven a PDK on Sport+? I have, and honestly believe it would leave me for dead in my manual car.
Yes I've driven both PDK extensively with both the 2.7 and 34 and yes I've tried sport+ but I don't see what the fuss is all about; Sport+ can't do anything that a manual can't and you don't have to faff around with any buttons.

I intend to take the Cayman to the Nurgburgring in the not too distant future, and I would like to see a BTG time in the high sevens. I also expect to spend most of the lap in 3rd gear, with a brief excursion into 2nd, 4th and maybe 5th in two or three places, PDK would be of no benefit here.

anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sound deadening, in a Porsche? They must have forgot to install some in my Cayman wink
I agree completely re labouring the engine in PDK. It is utterly infuriating and can only be an emissions thing. As my wife put it 'If it's not supposed to accelerate hard below 2500 revs, why doesn't it change down on it's own when I press the accelerator hard?!' No real answer to that other than that it's not been programmed properly as regards responding to part throttle at low revs.

J12KJR

2,860 posts

242 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014
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mrdemon said:
I would take the good years over the pzero any way.
So that makes the manual even faster lol
A lower profile and without checking specs probably wider tyre on a well sorted car is going to make more difference surely.

Doesn't really matter as people will champion the one they prefer anyway but if doing a comparison then it should be truly comparable.
Yes I know its for an entertainment show but it seems a shame they couldn't have done it properly.

BGHughes

123 posts

141 months

Wednesday 19th November 2014
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Re the 'labouring' PDK

At a steady 70mph on the motorway, my PDK (in normal mode) sits in 7th gear at about 2000rpm. The engine drones and feels laboured. The car is still responsive enough for normal motorway driving.

Obviously, on B roads with 'sport selected, there's no such issues.

So, how is the manual geared by comparison?

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Wednesday 19th November 2014
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BGHughes said:
So, how is the manual geared by comparison?
Definitely no droning in the manual. Looks as though top gear ratio is about 0.81 in the 6-speed manual Boxster S and 0.62 in the 7-speed PDK, which is a big difference. But presumably easily solved by changing down a gear! Although having said that it seems 6th is still longer in PDK at 0.88 than in manual at 0.81

IMO the guys who think the manual is as quick as a PDK are wildly optimistic, at least in the absence of gross driver abuse of the manual. Which is what happens in most of these track comparisons - standing starts by dropping the clutch with the engine revving, clutchless gear changes and all that. PDK shifts cogs massively quicker than a human and the 30kg weight penalty is small at 2%.

http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2013/2013_Boxste...



BGHughes

123 posts

141 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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Thanks Ozzie, good link

7th is a fuel saving gear then. As you say, it's easy enough to tap the sport button and drop to 6th if the drone gets annoying. The only slight worry is the engine sounds so much nicer at 85mph driving