Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?

Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?

Author
Discussion

Calza

1,979 posts

114 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
GavinPearson said:
This describes the same sort of issue, only on a big V8 diesel:

Source: http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/humor/228435-what...

So what's a diesel run away?

A diesel runaway is when the engine rpm goes up uncontrolled and there is no way the engine can stop itself. Diesel engines don't actually require any controls on then to run. All they need is fuel and air. Gas engines need a spark at just the right time, and a fuel pulse of just the right duration to run. Also, diesels can run on a wide range of fuel. Remember when all of us diesel guys were complaining about leaking injectors on 03's that were filling the crankcase with fuel? Well, 30+ quarts of a fuel/oil mix in the crankcase will submerge the crank. One of the last steps on the diesel diag sheet is an oil aeration test where you have to run the engine at wot (3500 or so rpm) for 3 minutes and then view the oil condition. That crank whipping up the fuel/oil will make a foam that rises through the engine, and eventually starts getting drafted into the intake stream. If there is enough coming into the intake, the engine rpm will start to rise even higher. Of course, this causes the oil to whip more, which makes it rise faster in the engine - a vicious cycle. You cut the key off, but the engine doesn't care - it's getting it's own fuel from another source. Smoke starts to pour from the tailpipe, and the truck starts to vibrate. At about 6000 rpm the ground starts to shake throughout the shop and the sales department looks outside to see if a thunderstorm is coming. 7500 rpm has the shop evacuating - by this time, the whole shop is flooded with smoke. 9000 rpm brings ominous noises from the shop - a cyclic wave of sound that feels like an invisible hand pressing on your chest. Somewhere about 10,000 rpm and the engine gives up. A sound that is a combination of a nearby lightning strike and every toolbox in the shop turning over at once explodes from the shop. The sound echos and continues for several seconds. You can actually feel a shockwave disperse through the concrete you're standing on. And then, the deafening silence. You try to see through the smoke and locate the truck - but something is wrong. It is sitting at an angle, tilted down in the front. And then you see why - both front tires are blown out. There is a scattering of parts 3 bays in each direction. A puddle of fluid is rapidly spreading from under the shredded front cap. The hood and fenders are destroyed, but ironically, the grille and headlights are still intact. And your first thought is - at least I don't have to work on this one anymore! And that, my friend, is a diesel runaway.
Genuine question - do they really exploded with that big a bang and that much force?

bosshog

Original Poster:

1,574 posts

275 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
pmjg66 said:
ou would need to get the new turbo removed and independently inspected with the manufacturer.

It will be fine,the oil is due to the previously failed turbo as it has collapsed damaging the turbo seals..

They should have done this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPa8KxnumE4
I suppose as well the run away engine will have probably damaged the new turbo that was fitted?

pmjg66

2,706 posts

213 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
bosshog said:
pmjg66 said:
ou would need to get the new turbo removed and independently inspected with the manufacturer.

It will be fine,the oil is due to the previously failed turbo as it has collapsed damaging the turbo seals..

They should have done this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPa8KxnumE4
I suppose as well the run away engine will have probably damaged the new turbo that was fitted?
Should be ok,unless engine parts have struck the impeller.

Sounds like its going to be a long battle with the garage,any documentation including the test on the new turbo will come in handy.

Good luck Wayne.

hidetheelephants

23,738 posts

192 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
bosshog said:
I suppose as well the run away engine will have probably damaged the new turbo that was fitted?
Unlikely unless debris escaped from the damaged valves or pistons and knackered the exhaust turbine.

Andyjc86

1,149 posts

148 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
The garage will now claim that the turbo you supplied was faulty. The next time you see it, it will have a dodgy seal and be covered in oil.

They will tell you to take it up with the supplier, who will tell you otherwise.

Basically, they will wriggle out of this on that technicality, seen it before.

It's an unfortunate situation OP, but supplying the part (which was more than likely NOT the cause), is going to cost you big style frown

BrettMRC

4,037 posts

159 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
PositronicRay said:
Ayahuasca said:
Would blocking the exhaust have any effect?
I'd give money to someone try. eek
We use exhaust chokes on the big singles - its an effective method of slowing the engine in the event of a runaway, but doesn't stop combustion. (I'm referring to big old two-stroke m, semi diesel hotbulbs)

Pommygranite

14,229 posts

215 months

Wednesday 26th November 2014
quotequote all
Is the answer to the thread question 'at a bus stop'?

getmecoat


itcaptainslow

3,694 posts

135 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
OP-how much does the garage value their reputation locally? Are they well known in the community?

Sounds like something a local radio show consumer program (Three Counties Radio have Jonathan Vernon-Smith or similarly named bod who deals with such things) or the local paper would pick up on, as a potentially cheaper and easier route than the legal one.

Pants situation to be in, and you have my sympathy. Hopefully it'll get resolved, I do wonder with a bit of pressure applied to the garage via the route I suggest, or by someone of the legal profession, may help. Have you written them a formal letter getting the facts down on paper and your request for rectification? This will formalise things and may even make the garage realise you're not going to go away off the back of their initial telephone call.

Pommygranite

14,229 posts

215 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Take the car back and park it on the road outside the garage with 'THIS GARAGE RUINED MY CAR' written on each side using big bright lettering.

It'll be cheaper for them to fix it than go legal.





MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
"Runaway" Diesels are far from rare:~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw2r_lIRgpY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

Yes, the runaways consume their own sump oil.

There's a reason why DVLA use the term Heavy Oil description for the type of fuel.

Clarkson said:
.
Devil's Fuel
.
Modern diesel engines need regular maintenance to a satisfactory standard. Lack of results in very costly maladies. A Turbocharger swap should be a non-event, done several over the years. Did the garage cock-up in some way? Maybe they did, maybe not. Will be very difficult to establish the real cause of these issues.

Good luck anyway. Petrol Turbochargers can fail spectacularly too but, when they do, the engines do not run on on their sump oil but do burn it along with the poetroleum. Here's a friend's 620ti with snapped turbine shaft. Click on image :~



I suspect irregular oil maintenance over long mileage intervals and cheap oil to blame in most cases of turbocharger damage... often misnamed 'failures'. The turbochargers on my family's cars are good for well over 100,000 miles and one double that. The one on an MG ZT showing only 74,000 miles expired following cylinder head gasket [CHG] damage allowing coolant to enter and degrade the engine oil which looked as though it was well past its recommended oil change interval anyway even before coolant was added to it via the damaged CHG. Poor lubricant in something which runs very hot and at anything up to 120,000rpm or more will soon result in problems. Usually big expensive ones. The family change engine oils at about 2/3rds manufacturer recommended mileage/time intervals. Good oil regularly changed is far cheap than a turbocharger renewal.

Clarkson has a point.

Ayahuasca

27,427 posts

278 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Pommygranite said:
Is the answer to the thread question 'at a bus stop'?

getmecoat
You mean, like the very first reply to this thread said?




snowdude2910

754 posts

163 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
I'd get on duedil or similar and check the garages finances, it might be something to take into consideration when weighing up legal costs and even which legal route to take I believe in the event of bankrupcy it becomes a first come first served afair and you want to get winding up procedings (I think this is the correct term) in first

Pommygranite

14,229 posts

215 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Ayahuasca said:
Pommygranite said:
Is the answer to the thread question 'at a bus stop'?

getmecoat
You mean, like the very first reply to this thread said?
Yeah, like that.



Spangles

1,441 posts

184 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Andyjc86 said:
The garage will now claim that the turbo you supplied was faulty. The next time you see it, it will have a dodgy seal and be covered in oil.

They will tell you to take it up with the supplier, who will tell you otherwise.

Basically, they will wriggle out of this on that technicality, seen it before.

It's an unfortunate situation OP, but supplying the part (which was more than likely NOT the cause), is going to cost you big style frown
Exactly. A faulty 'new' (actually not new, reconditioned which can often mean a steam clean and a new box) turbo can easily have been the cause of the problem. If the garage had supplied it then it would be their problem but they didn't.

I refuse to fit customer supplied parts for just this scenario.

StuntmanMike

11,671 posts

150 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Spangles said:
Andyjc86 said:
The garage will now claim that the turbo you supplied was faulty. The next time you see it, it will have a dodgy seal and be covered in oil.

They will tell you to take it up with the supplier, who will tell you otherwise.

Basically, they will wriggle out of this on that technicality, seen it before.

It's an unfortunate situation OP, but supplying the part (which was more than likely NOT the cause), is going to cost you big style frown
Exactly. A faulty 'new' (actually not new, reconditioned which can often mean a steam clean and a new box) turbo can easily have been the cause of the problem. If the garage had supplied it then it would be their problem but they didn't.

I refuse to fit customer supplied parts for just this scenario.
Definitely a lesson there.

stuart-b

3,643 posts

225 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".

This is nonsense

1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?

OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.

I would personally fight it if I were you.

Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.

Edited by stuart-b on Thursday 27th November 07:54

Matt_N

8,900 posts

201 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Andyjc86 said:
The garage will now claim that the turbo you supplied was faulty. The next time you see it, it will have a dodgy seal and be covered in oil.

They will tell you to take it up with the supplier, who will tell you otherwise.

Basically, they will wriggle out of this on that technicality, seen it before.

It's an unfortunate situation OP, but supplying the part (which was more than likely NOT the cause), is going to cost you big style frown
Sad to say it but I think this is how it'll pan out.

If the OP had mentioned this in the first post the advice may have been different, i.e. get the re-furbed turbo back asap and send it back to the re-furber for inspection.

zedx19

2,702 posts

139 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-N47D20A-ENGINE-SUPPL...

I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.

Monkeylegend

26,226 posts

230 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Pommygranite said:
Ayahuasca said:
Pommygranite said:
Is the answer to the thread question 'at a bus stop'?

getmecoat
You mean, like the very first reply to this thread said?
Yeah, like that.
I like your style wink

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Thursday 27th November 2014
quotequote all
Calza said:
GavinPearson said:
This describes the same sort of issue, only on a big V8 diesel:

Source: http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/humor/228435-what...

So what's a diesel run away?

A diesel runaway is when the engine rpm goes up uncontrolled and there is no way the engine can stop itself. Diesel engines don't actually require any controls on then to run. All they need is fuel and air. Gas engines need a spark at just the right time, and a fuel pulse of just the right duration to run. Also, diesels can run on a wide range of fuel. Remember when all of us diesel guys were complaining about leaking injectors on 03's that were filling the crankcase with fuel? Well, 30+ quarts of a fuel/oil mix in the crankcase will submerge the crank. One of the last steps on the diesel diag sheet is an oil aeration test where you have to run the engine at wot (3500 or so rpm) for 3 minutes and then view the oil condition. That crank whipping up the fuel/oil will make a foam that rises through the engine, and eventually starts getting drafted into the intake stream. If there is enough coming into the intake, the engine rpm will start to rise even higher. Of course, this causes the oil to whip more, which makes it rise faster in the engine - a vicious cycle. You cut the key off, but the engine doesn't care - it's getting it's own fuel from another source. Smoke starts to pour from the tailpipe, and the truck starts to vibrate. At about 6000 rpm the ground starts to shake throughout the shop and the sales department looks outside to see if a thunderstorm is coming. 7500 rpm has the shop evacuating - by this time, the whole shop is flooded with smoke. 9000 rpm brings ominous noises from the shop - a cyclic wave of sound that feels like an invisible hand pressing on your chest. Somewhere about 10,000 rpm and the engine gives up. A sound that is a combination of a nearby lightning strike and every toolbox in the shop turning over at once explodes from the shop. The sound echos and continues for several seconds. You can actually feel a shockwave disperse through the concrete you're standing on. And then, the deafening silence. You try to see through the smoke and locate the truck - but something is wrong. It is sitting at an angle, tilted down in the front. And then you see why - both front tires are blown out. There is a scattering of parts 3 bays in each direction. A puddle of fluid is rapidly spreading from under the shredded front cap. The hood and fenders are destroyed, but ironically, the grille and headlights are still intact. And your first thought is - at least I don't have to work on this one anymore! And that, my friend, is a diesel runaway.
Genuine question - do they really exploded with that big a bang and that much force?
It really depends...

A big V8 diesel like the one described may have a very large sump of oil, so the engine will spent a great deal of time at high RPM until the oil is exhausted.

An engine that burns through it' oil quicker will probably seize before it has a chance to rip itself apart..

Either way, it's not really a chance you want to be taking. If you can't choke the air or stall the motor quickly, than stand well clear.