Thinking of a 944 Turbo
Discussion
I still don't think they are horrific in the wet, it is poor maintenance which makes them poor.
To put it into perpective my 944 S2 was iffy when I got it (and it was the best example I saw by far when I initially bought it). In the dry it was a little twitchy and in the wet was unpredictable in the corners when even slightly pressing on. I did change the lower arms, and castor mount bushes for 968 items in addition to the tyres (Kumhos all round) although with a basic geometry check. It did improve matters but I still could not trust it. It was clear the previous bloke thought the same thing (he changed the steering shaft and the track rods at some point).
My Turbo was a revelation in comparison if I am honest. It had KWv3s, Powerflex Poly bushes for the ARBs, fresh Michelin rubber in addition to be aligned correctly (i.e all of the settings). Initially I was careful with it (it had almost 80BHP more than my S2 after all!). From driving it down the road in February 2013 it felt slightly firmer in some respects but certainly comfortable over bumps, possibly more so. The same day I drove it to Lincoln as my daily decided it required attention. In the bends with a little more commitment it was truly different ; the passenger was grabbing the door at many times, although the car felt very planted.
In the car's time I changed the front tyres for another set of Michelins. Before I sold it a local S2 owner to me wished to go in the car to see how it differed to his (a stock low mileage (90,000 miles) S2 which was a H reg, just like mine). I certainly did show him what the car could do. He certainly did grab many parts of the dashboard and put himself in the brace position! After a change of underwear he was saying that my Turbo was far more planted in the corners in comparison to his, and that he felt that his car would have spun off the road long before what I pushed my car to, and that was in a car with almost 100,000 miles more on the clock. I did offer him a chance to drive my car but he declined.
A few others have driven my car and felt that it seemed no different to a normal 944 at normalish speeds which I guess is a problem, and why one's word has to be taken.
On standardish suspension and middle of the road tyres yes they can be tricky. With a few careful mods and modern rubber I do believe they are a very capable chassis. OK I did have some of the best bits in the business on my car but on most occasions I would trust it in the wet
. Of course if I tried to step it out in the wet I would, but then both of my current cars would as well in all honesty!
To put it into perpective my 944 S2 was iffy when I got it (and it was the best example I saw by far when I initially bought it). In the dry it was a little twitchy and in the wet was unpredictable in the corners when even slightly pressing on. I did change the lower arms, and castor mount bushes for 968 items in addition to the tyres (Kumhos all round) although with a basic geometry check. It did improve matters but I still could not trust it. It was clear the previous bloke thought the same thing (he changed the steering shaft and the track rods at some point).
My Turbo was a revelation in comparison if I am honest. It had KWv3s, Powerflex Poly bushes for the ARBs, fresh Michelin rubber in addition to be aligned correctly (i.e all of the settings). Initially I was careful with it (it had almost 80BHP more than my S2 after all!). From driving it down the road in February 2013 it felt slightly firmer in some respects but certainly comfortable over bumps, possibly more so. The same day I drove it to Lincoln as my daily decided it required attention. In the bends with a little more commitment it was truly different ; the passenger was grabbing the door at many times, although the car felt very planted.
In the car's time I changed the front tyres for another set of Michelins. Before I sold it a local S2 owner to me wished to go in the car to see how it differed to his (a stock low mileage (90,000 miles) S2 which was a H reg, just like mine). I certainly did show him what the car could do. He certainly did grab many parts of the dashboard and put himself in the brace position! After a change of underwear he was saying that my Turbo was far more planted in the corners in comparison to his, and that he felt that his car would have spun off the road long before what I pushed my car to, and that was in a car with almost 100,000 miles more on the clock. I did offer him a chance to drive my car but he declined.
A few others have driven my car and felt that it seemed no different to a normal 944 at normalish speeds which I guess is a problem, and why one's word has to be taken.
On standardish suspension and middle of the road tyres yes they can be tricky. With a few careful mods and modern rubber I do believe they are a very capable chassis. OK I did have some of the best bits in the business on my car but on most occasions I would trust it in the wet
. Of course if I tried to step it out in the wet I would, but then both of my current cars would as well in all honesty!They are great cars but need nearly constant attention to be kept in top condition, not necessarily on major known topics (belts, clutch, brakes, etc), but on details such as cleaning/waxing the sills twice a year, having the wheels balanced twice a year and have the geometry checked once a year, checking that electrical grounds don't gather corrosion if the car lives in a mostly wet environment and use as regularly as possible all electrical functions and especially the air con.
If you can use a spanner and don't mind investing in a few particular tools the maintenance experience can be as rewarding as the drive, but this is a slippery slope as there is a lot of go-faster goodies available these days that completely transform the drive and bring the car to standards not too far from the latest mid size cars, with the added bonus of retaining a mechanical feel now long gone on most moderns.
The interior is a lot more robust than on a 928. The seats are perhaps not as comfy but they are definitely sharper. You are never likely to experience even a third of the electric/electronic hassle with a 944 than with a 928. The 944 turbo is smaller, lighter, nimbler, the cabin is far less claustrophobic with a infinitely better seating position and an interior that does not age, while the 928 still feels like a 70s car inside, a fat slow thirsty one at that. The 944 has a proper fuse/relay box while the 928's is an antiquated joke.
The technically inferior suspension layout of the 944 will let you feel the road at reasonable speeds while the 928 is a flying carpet. The sorted '91 928 GT I drove last week felt cold, inert, totally uninvolving. A 944 turbo with a sorted suspension will always feel like a bicycle in comparison.
If you can use a spanner and don't mind investing in a few particular tools the maintenance experience can be as rewarding as the drive, but this is a slippery slope as there is a lot of go-faster goodies available these days that completely transform the drive and bring the car to standards not too far from the latest mid size cars, with the added bonus of retaining a mechanical feel now long gone on most moderns.
The interior is a lot more robust than on a 928. The seats are perhaps not as comfy but they are definitely sharper. You are never likely to experience even a third of the electric/electronic hassle with a 944 than with a 928. The 944 turbo is smaller, lighter, nimbler, the cabin is far less claustrophobic with a infinitely better seating position and an interior that does not age, while the 928 still feels like a 70s car inside, a fat slow thirsty one at that. The 944 has a proper fuse/relay box while the 928's is an antiquated joke.
The technically inferior suspension layout of the 944 will let you feel the road at reasonable speeds while the 928 is a flying carpet. The sorted '91 928 GT I drove last week felt cold, inert, totally uninvolving. A 944 turbo with a sorted suspension will always feel like a bicycle in comparison.
Im not going to tell you that I have a set by my desk Thom, as I don't now, but I do have a set of 944 Turbo seats here and I have compared them with a set of 928S4 leather seats that I have in my garage.
Take the covers off and they are identical. The 928 seats feel a little different due to the extra detail in the cushions, but other than that - the same.
Take the covers off and they are identical. The 928 seats feel a little different due to the extra detail in the cushions, but other than that - the same.
Thom said:
They are great cars but need nearly constant attention to be kept in top condition, not necessarily on major known topics (belts, clutch, brakes, etc), but on details such as cleaning/waxing the sills twice a year, having the wheels balanced twice a year and have the geometry checked once a year, checking that electrical grounds don't gather corrosion if the car lives in a mostly wet environment and use as regularly as possible all electrical functions and especially the air con.
If you can use a spanner and don't mind investing in a few particular tools the maintenance experience can be as rewarding as the drive, but this is a slippery slope as there is a lot of go-faster goodies available these days that completely transform the drive and bring the car to standards not too far from the latest mid size cars, with the added bonus of retaining a mechanical feel now long gone on most moderns.
The interior is a lot more robust than on a 928. The seats are perhaps not as comfy but they are definitely sharper. You are never likely to experience even a third of the electric/electronic hassle with a 944 than with a 928. The 944 turbo is smaller, lighter, nimbler, the cabin is far less claustrophobic with a infinitely better seating position and an interior that does not age, while the 928 still feels like a 70s car inside, a fat slow thirsty one at that. The 944 has a proper fuse/relay box while the 928's is an antiquated joke.
The technically inferior suspension layout of the 944 will let you feel the road at reasonable speeds while the 928 is a flying carpet. The sorted '91 928 GT I drove last week felt cold, inert, totally uninvolving. A 944 turbo with a sorted suspension will always feel like a bicycle in comparison.
A lot of truth about maintaining a 944 and the rewards it brings. If you can use a spanner and don't mind investing in a few particular tools the maintenance experience can be as rewarding as the drive, but this is a slippery slope as there is a lot of go-faster goodies available these days that completely transform the drive and bring the car to standards not too far from the latest mid size cars, with the added bonus of retaining a mechanical feel now long gone on most moderns.
The interior is a lot more robust than on a 928. The seats are perhaps not as comfy but they are definitely sharper. You are never likely to experience even a third of the electric/electronic hassle with a 944 than with a 928. The 944 turbo is smaller, lighter, nimbler, the cabin is far less claustrophobic with a infinitely better seating position and an interior that does not age, while the 928 still feels like a 70s car inside, a fat slow thirsty one at that. The 944 has a proper fuse/relay box while the 928's is an antiquated joke.
The technically inferior suspension layout of the 944 will let you feel the road at reasonable speeds while the 928 is a flying carpet. The sorted '91 928 GT I drove last week felt cold, inert, totally uninvolving. A 944 turbo with a sorted suspension will always feel like a bicycle in comparison.
And the usual rubbish comes out...
Stock vs. Stock 944 Turbo and a GT or GTS-5 spd there is absolutely no comparison in performance. Up to about 80mph the Turbo will hang in there and from then on it gets blitzed. Unless it is a 944 Turbo S it does not stop as well as the 928 either. Don't get me started on changing the clutch or on the subject of bore scoring, or the appetite of 8v 944 heads for valve guides.
Overall, I like them a lot, but to compare one with a GT or GTS and say it is better, it is simply laughable.
And before anyone says a thing - have a look at my garage...
My 944 turbo has cost me overall quite a bit less than what a 928 GTS goes for these days and will obliterate one on a straight, in the twisties, manoeuvring in town, at the fuel pump, when loading the boot. In fact the 928 might perform better only when sitting in the garage not moving one bit, and even then if it's let sat for too long it will likely be a lot more troublesome to get started again.
I have driven six 928s of various flavours so far and sorry, but really a poor car in comparison to the 4 cylinder cars, and I am perfectly fine if anyone disagrees, though they would probably still need a reality check.
I have driven six 928s of various flavours so far and sorry, but really a poor car in comparison to the 4 cylinder cars, and I am perfectly fine if anyone disagrees, though they would probably still need a reality check.
Edited by Thom on Friday 28th November 20:50
Unnecessarily forum-warriorish Alex.
Thom's 951 is far, far from standard and even though I have over twenty years of 944 (924&968) experience behind me, I will always read his comments with interest - particularly aout 951 tuning and engine building.
Im not convinced about your comments about the vehicles' brakes either (nor the 8v cars propensity for valve guide wear).
Thom's 951 is far, far from standard and even though I have over twenty years of 944 (924&968) experience behind me, I will always read his comments with interest - particularly aout 951 tuning and engine building.
Im not convinced about your comments about the vehicles' brakes either (nor the 8v cars propensity for valve guide wear).
GC8 said:
Unnecessarily forum-warriorish Alex.
Thom's 951 is far, far from standard and even though I have over twenty years of 944 (924&968) experience behind me, I will always read his comments with interest - particularly aout 951 tuning and engine building.
Im not convinced about your comments about the vehicles' brakes either (nor the 8v cars propensity for valve guide wear).
I am very happy to take Thom's advice on engine building. I also generally agree with him that the 944 is a superb car. Where he needs a reality check is that a STANDARD 944 Turbo any guise is a better car than a standard GT or GTS. Actually I am at a loss why the 928 was even brought into his post.Thom's 951 is far, far from standard and even though I have over twenty years of 944 (924&968) experience behind me, I will always read his comments with interest - particularly aout 951 tuning and engine building.
Im not convinced about your comments about the vehicles' brakes either (nor the 8v cars propensity for valve guide wear).
As to the brakes - the non M030 calipers are adequate - that's what I had on my racer to start with. But clearly Porsche saw the need to upgrade them.
Two turbo engines that I have taken apart and 4 928 16v engines. All with about 100,000 miles on the clock, all with FSH whatever that means... All had their valve guides AND valves shot.. Perhaps a freaky occurrence? Or the valves are huge and heavy and the guides are short, hence a lot of rocking occurs?
Cheburator mk2 said:
Where he needs a reality check is that a STANDARD 944 Turbo any guise is a better car than a standard GT or GTS. Actually I am at a loss why the 928 was even brought into his post.
The OP was concerned that a 944 turbo may be as bad an experience as his former 928, whence the comparison.You can get a decently fast car (~300hp/350ft.lbs) out of a sound 944 turbo (S) with just a ~£200 chipset and a few other bits and bobs that will take about 30 min to install without harming reliability at all. By then your average 928 GT or GTS may still be slightly faster (on a straight only, and as you said only past a certain speed that is already way above the speed limit) but will cost a lot more to run, will drink more fuel when driven slowly because it's got twice as much for an engine, will eat more brakes and tyres because it's heavier, will be more expensive to run as simply because fewer were made, some parts are now getting seriously expensive from Porsche, and availability of spares from breakers will always be lower than with any 944.
Maybe I should add that I would still enjoy to have something like a late 928 GT as I love the atmosphere driving with the headlights raised and the rumble of the V8 engine, and would feel some reward from working in this horribly tight engine bay, but for any person who is not already a front engine Porsche geek I can only honestly say that the 944 turbo will eat a lot less resource than a 928, and provide more driving fun.
In fact I am pushing a friend of mine to buy the '91 GT I mentioned earlier as I like the idea to learn deep about the car and work on it without having to pay for anything. For what it's worth it was the first time he drove a 928 and thought a few cylinders were missing considering how slow it felt in comparison with his 944 turbo. But it would sure look cool and make sense among the few other soft-ish "GT" cars sitting in his garage.
Edited by Thom on Friday 28th November 22:04
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