The economics of new car sales
Discussion
liner33 said:
I did think that 35k would be a killer on pcp
Its just that you say in your garage that you do 25k business plus personal use , thats where I got the 35k figure from and hence my confusion.
"Doing 25,000 miles a year of commuting plus personal miles so makes sense. Averaging 69mpg brim to brim"
Ah right no. Its settled at just over 20K pa now. I meant 25K altogether on the profile post, not 25K business plus personal.Its just that you say in your garage that you do 25k business plus personal use , thats where I got the 35k figure from and hence my confusion.
"Doing 25,000 miles a year of commuting plus personal miles so makes sense. Averaging 69mpg brim to brim"
I thought you were asking advice on a PCP if YOU were doing 35K miles per year. Confusion all around then...
Sheepshanks said:
I still haven't worked out what the "scam" is, but it seems slightly ridiculous to force PCPs on people.
Generally, I think the bad thing about heavily subsidised PCPs and lease deals is that they're distorting the market - people are getting cars at prices that aren't available to cash buyers.
Yes. Hence why some PCP deals can work out so cost effective.Generally, I think the bad thing about heavily subsidised PCPs and lease deals is that they're distorting the market - people are getting cars at prices that aren't available to cash buyers.
Its effectively discounting through the back door. By offering "complementary" or "manufacturers contributions" into the finance deal, they're not having to discount their cars as heavily - which of course would have a knock on effect on residuals.
BMW are doing it heavily on the likes of the z4 at the minute. Its reaching end of life with a new one due soon so they're throwing anything up to £10,000 into the finance deals depending on the model.
nickfrog said:
I think the perception that cash is more expensive is wrong based on personal experience and at least for family cars.
I have never said a cash purchase is more expensive. I have said that a PCP is an alternative way to purchase / drive / "rent" a car over a set period of time.I have always always said different methods of purchase / ownership suit different people at different times and there is no right or wrong. Its all swings and roundabouts.
Bemusingly, you accuse me of being "bitter" for defending PCP deals, yet you are clearly affronted because you think people have criticised your choice of buying with cash?
nickfrog said:
Then you tell me that doesn't reflect the reality yet you come up with the Golf R example which represents a minuscule proportion of family cars. How objective is that ?
Yes. Exactly. Your personal experience with your BMW is no more a representation of everybodys experience as the Golf R is at the other extreme. Thats why i mentioned it. nickfrog said:
I have called people who rent "renters" because that's what they are, I had no idea one could be susceptible enough to get offended.
Well i think you'll fine "one" could be using it in a context that could be construed as derrogatory.Certainly not offended. Just another example of how you seem capable of poking jibes and underhanded comments but then cant take it when people retaliate.
And really - using "one"? That in itself is condescending.
nickfrog said:
What's wrong with renting ? If you can think of a better word, I will happily use it instead, I don't want to hurt anyone feelings, seriously/
Try the word "leasing".nickfrog said:
You claim I have said : "if he spent less time on this thread he could get a better job and be able to buy a car"
This is what I said :
In the context of what you said its what you meant.This is what I said :
nickfrog said:
If people spent less time posting all through the day, maybe they would make a better living...
Is that what you call objectivity ? Freudian slip, surely. nickfrog said:
It does explain why you are so bitter.
WHY WHY WHY would i be bitter? Genuinely? Do you think i'm jealous of you or something? Have you really got that level of arrogance.I used to be in the motor trade. The subject of car sales and why people do what and when fascinates me. Granted i'll put my hand up to being "over enthusiastic" in some of my responses but its certainly not "bitterness".
I've said many many times on threads, times i've had the most pleasure in motoring has been when i've been driving cars only worth a few hundred quid. If a mate were to pass me in a new Porsche my first thought wouldnt be "well clearly he cant afford that", it would be "wow nice car".
nickfrog said:
Again, I deal with facts, if you can afford to dedicate so much time during working hours to posting, then you're either doing well or not as well as you could.
I flick on to the odd thread and we're in our quiet week of the month. We take the rough with the smooth. Its not a "hands on" role so its like steering a supertanker rather than bouncing on every wave. If i've time to take it easy sometimes its because my team and i have a strong grip on what we're doing.
I do my 9 to 5, come home and forget about it and i've people who do the grunt work for me and i'm well paid without having to kill myself.
So thanks, yes, i'm doing well.
nickfrog said:
Surely it's a simple concept : the more you work, the more successful you are. None of my staff are allowed to do this during working hours and they're pretty successful financially
If you're in a manual or hands on role then yes, i guess the harder you work then some day you might get rewarded.Personally, i look at the bigger picture.
Edited by daemon on Saturday 22 November 19:05
daemon said:
nickfrog said:
Then you tell me that doesn't reflect the reality yet you come up with the Golf R example which represents a minuscule proportion of family cars. How objective is that ?
Yes. Exactly. Your personal experience with your BMW is no more a representation of everybodys experience as the Golf R is at the other extreme. Thats why i mentioned it. We were talking about how much cheaper the Qashqai had been new bought cash compared to lease. Then you tell me not to extrapolate but you come up with the Golf R lease example ?
daemon said:
Bemusingly, you accuse me of being "bitter" for defending PCP deals, yet you are clearly affronted because you think people have criticised your choice of buying with cash?
Well i think you'll fine "one" could be using it in a context that could be construed as derrogatory.
Just another example of how you seem capable of poking jibes and underhanded comments but then cant take it when people retaliate.
And really - using "one"? That in itself is condescending.
In the context of what you said its what you meant.
Do you think i'm jealous of you or something? Have you really got that level of arrogance.
If you're in a manual or hands on role then yes, i guess the harder you work then some day you might get rewarded.
Personally, i look at the bigger picture.
Well i think you'll fine "one" could be using it in a context that could be construed as derrogatory.
Just another example of how you seem capable of poking jibes and underhanded comments but then cant take it when people retaliate.
And really - using "one"? That in itself is condescending.
In the context of what you said its what you meant.
Do you think i'm jealous of you or something? Have you really got that level of arrogance.
If you're in a manual or hands on role then yes, i guess the harder you work then some day you might get rewarded.
Personally, i look at the bigger picture.
Wow, you are judging me by your own standards all along. I had no idea someone could be so bitter/susceptible. No doubt in my mind now. Man up.
I remember that "bigger picture" wasn't it that you got out of the rat race and could work when you wanted selling a few polished turds and then walk the dogs while wifie earned the corn in the call centre.
But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
How many people at the end of a PCP have the money in hard cash to pay of the balloon?
I am sure that plenty people can "afford" to "rent" cars but there is a huge difference to being able to own it and that is the whole point of these "deals" and I think deamon said "win win" yes indeed manufacturer and franchise!
Go down to your local tyre place and ask them about the look of horror on renters faces when he tells them the 4tyres for there 4x4 is gong to be over £1k so onto the credit card it goes because everything is on the never never!
Of course this is not everyone it is "SOME" but to say otherwise makes you look like one of the some!
But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
How many people at the end of a PCP have the money in hard cash to pay of the balloon?
I am sure that plenty people can "afford" to "rent" cars but there is a huge difference to being able to own it and that is the whole point of these "deals" and I think deamon said "win win" yes indeed manufacturer and franchise!
Go down to your local tyre place and ask them about the look of horror on renters faces when he tells them the 4tyres for there 4x4 is gong to be over £1k so onto the credit card it goes because everything is on the never never!
Of course this is not everyone it is "SOME" but to say otherwise makes you look like one of the some!
nickfrog said:
What has it got to do with the BMW ?
We were talking about how much cheaper the Qashqai had been new bought cash compared to lease. Then you tell me not to extrapolate but you come up with the Golf R lease example ?
Ok, your experience with depreciation on the Qashqai was as relevant to the broader experience of the car buying public as the Golf R deals are. ie, not very. I was using it to counter your "extreme"We were talking about how much cheaper the Qashqai had been new bought cash compared to lease. Then you tell me not to extrapolate but you come up with the Golf R lease example ?
nickfrog said:
Wow, you are judging me by your own standards all along. I had no idea someone could be so bitter/susceptible. No doubt in my mind now. Man up.
I turn that around on you and i'm "bitter".
Edited by daemon on Saturday 22 November 20:18
Grandfondo said:
I remember that "bigger picture" wasn't it that you got out of the rat race and could work when you wanted selling a few polished turds and then walk the dogs while wifie earned the corn in the call centre.
But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
I'd a couple of years out motor trading and it didnt bring in the money i wanted so i went back to IT. But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
I've been very open about that. If trying to make that into a negative makes you the "bigger man" on an internet forum then Go You!
Grandfondo said:
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
Stupid people do stupid things. If someone is stupid enough to buy / rent / PCP / lease something they cant afford to, for example impress the neighbours, then more fool them.Grandfondo said:
How many people at the end of a PCP have the money in hard cash to pay of the balloon?
Who knows and who really cares - other than you it seems. PCP deals tend to be about driving a new car for a set time then repeating with another new car.If someone wants "off" that system then just hand the car back / sell it at the end of the term and go buy a car.
Grandfondo said:
I am sure that plenty people can "afford" to "rent" cars but there is a huge difference to being able to own it and that is the whole point of these "deals" and I think deamon said "win win" yes indeed manufacturer and franchise!
Yeah its a win all round. People get the car they want for an agreed budgeted monthly sum. Manufacturers sell new cars, and it generates used cars to support the market further down the line.Whats the problem? If someone hadnt bought your 645i all those years ago new (and probably on a PCP deal) then you wouldnt have been able to buy it later when its worth a few grand.
Grandfondo said:
Of course this is not everyone it is "SOME" but to say otherwise makes you look like one of the some!
As i've said, just posing a different viewpoint. Dont really care who does what, just bemused by those that really seem to.Grandfondo said:
daemon said:
As i've said, just posing a different viewpoint. Dont really care who does what, just bemused by those that really seem to.
62 posts about something you don't care about! I think its a very interest subject hence why i'm posting on this thread.
This is a car enthusiasts forum right? So if someone gets to drive what they want to by either cash, PCP, lease, rent, HP or loan then what does it really matter?
Why do you feel it necessary to "judge" that someone can or cant afford it?
Edited by daemon on Saturday 22 November 22:04
wolves_wanderer said:
the only bitters I can see are the ones judging the "renters"Its fairly sad to have to try to undermine other people just to feel better about your own life.
EVERY debate there is on this Grandfondo feels its necessary to bring up that i used to motor trade and it didnt work out, and that people who finance a car "cant really afford it".
How fragile must his own life choices be that he takes pleasure from that?
Antony Moxey said:
Well she is so what's your point? You don't particularly like her car of choice so therefore it's a bad deal? Perhaps she'd look at your choice of car, and how you chose to pay for that car and scoff equally as dismissively - perhaps she'd have a point.
My point was that the audience for new cars ranges from 17 to 70 or so, and I would imagine the portion of that spectrum for which a new Ka, Up! or similar is an aspirational item is relatively small. So it suggests there are other reasons than 'I want a shiny 64 plate on my drive, that all those tens of thousands of new Fiestas are being purchased onto credit.To my mind the most likely explanation is effective financial marketing, essentially. The same process whereby we have been convinced to spend four times as much for our housing, so that the banks can roll it up in trillions of pounds worth of debt. The credit products create the demand, rather than the other way round.
Although at least, to be fair, the automotive credit sector produces something tangible - I don't think that's a bad thing, it's just interesting the extent to which these financial products drive our society.
Grandfondo said:
I remember that "bigger picture" wasn't it that you got out of the rat race and could work when you wanted selling a few polished turds and then walk the dogs while wifie earned the corn in the call centre.
But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
Go down to your local tyre place and ask them about the look of horror on renters faces when he tells them the 4tyres for there 4x4 is gong to be over £1k so onto the credit card it goes because everything is on the never never!
What do the lease terms say about fitting linglongs?But it all went tits up and back onto the treadmill he went and back to renting a hack to get to the 9 till 5 that he hated so much!
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
Go down to your local tyre place and ask them about the look of horror on renters faces when he tells them the 4tyres for there 4x4 is gong to be over £1k so onto the credit card it goes because everything is on the never never!
Grandfondo said:
Justin Case said:
Grandfondo said:
And round and round we go but the fact is that PCP/lease gets some people into cars they can't afford to own FACT!
By your logic, you have proved that a PCP is more cost-effective than outright purchase 
A PCP is a way to purchase a car without investing as much initial capital, and allows you to offset the final payment until later in the agreement. Just because the majority of people don't go into a dealership and purchase a car fully outright, doesn't mean they can't afford it. PCP is just a slightly different HP, which people have bought cars on for years and years; yet I'd imagine you'd perceive them to "afford to own" their car
But according to your logic I can't afford a house. I would like to think the mortgage company would disagree.
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