Scottish Drink Drving Chages

[Nigel Worc's]

sim72 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

<sigh> You really don't understand, do you?

Scotland is a region which forms part of the country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

If you are banned by a Scottish court, you are banned by a UK court, so you are banned across the UK. The UK is the country.
If you were banned by a court in Worcestershire, you'd be banned across the UK. The UK is the country.
Scotland is not a country. Alex asked people if they wanted it to be, they said no. The UK is the country. Scotland is a part of the UK which has some laws different to other bits. That doesn't matter. Think of them as bylaws, if it helps you.

To be fair, it is a good point. Worcestershire does not have differing laws to the rest of England. Scotland has passed a law which is different from the rest of the UK. Now I can quite understand that if you're caught with, say 60mg in Scotland, you get a ban from Scottish roads. But why should that ban apply in England and Wales, where it's not an offence? I strongly suspect the first one of these that goes to the EHCR will lose.

That is exactly my point, any of us could be banned from driving in England & Wales, by a Scottish court, for something that isn't illegal in England & Wales.

I don't think that is a good way to do things.

Do any other Countries within the EU have different drink drive limits in different regions of the same Country ?

[rs1952]

TooMany2cvs said:

There's no such thing as "EU law". What there are are directives, originated by the EU, which are then incorporated by Westminster into UK law.

I know that. You know that. Try telling UKIP that

But I digress

TooMany2cvs said:

Simple solution - if you think your blood-alcohol is between 50 and 80, don't drive across the border into Scotland. Stay south of the border.

Not quite that simple, by all accounts

Red Devil said:

For example if you take the B6350 between Coldstream and Kelso rather than the A698 you cross the border twice. The border runs along the Tweed at Coldstream. Cross the bridge and you're in England. Half way along the B6350 and the border swings abruptly south along the tiny Carhm Burn. There appears to be no sign to tell a visitor from England unfamiliar with the area that he/she is re-entering Scotland (there is in the opposite direction though!).

[Aretnap]

R33dk said:

Aretnap.... So your effectively saying for example you can have 2 pints and drive on 30mph roads but you can't then drive on a motorway?

No, I was making the comparison with speed limits specifically in response to the "but how can you be banned in place X for doing something that's not illegal in place X". The answer is that you can, and in fact it happens pretty much every day.

Speed limits vary across the country, set mainly by local councils based on some combination of actual safety data, local public opinion, and the political agendas of the particular councils (not unlike the reasons the Scottish government have lowered the DD limit ). As another example, Portsmouth has a blanket 20 mph limit in residential areas, but Southampton doesn't. Not everyone agrees with 20mph limits, which is fair enough... but have you ever heard anyone try to argue that if you're banned for driving at 30mph in Portsmouth (perhaps repeatedly) the ban should somehow not apply in Southampton?

Or looked at from another angle... exceeding the speed limit is an offence. That limit varies from place to place. But exceeding the local limit will get you points and/or a ban which apply nationwide. Similarly driving while over the alcohol limit is an offence. That limit varies from place to place. But exceeding the local limit gets you a ban which applies nationwide. You might not agree with the Scots limit or the fact that it's different from the English one, but on a fundamental level the one scenario doesn't raise any fundamental questions of law or human rights that the other one doesn't.

R33dk said:

Comparing it to speed limits is ridiculous . You can alter that easily.

So I have 2 pints in the Lake District, get to the border, get out the car throw up the contents of my stomach and then carry on my journey ?

Well, that's a slightly different argument. No, you can't change your blood alcohol concentration as easily as you can change your speed, but the law is hardly difficult to comply with. If you're going to drive into Scotland, don't have 2 pints. And if you do have two pints, don't drive across the border for a few hours. It's not unduly onerous. And it's not even as if anyone is suggesting that every town should have its own limit, which would be genuinely confusing, and probably unworkable.

R33dk said:

Its a bit like saying that, if the UK authorities found out you were doing 110mph on a derestricted bit of road on the Isle of Man (through an insurance "little black box," perhaps?), they'd give you a driving ban in the UK because you did something that was illegal in the UK but not illegal in the place where you did it. That would be manifest nonsense.

No, that would be completely different - you'd be being punished for doing something which was legal in the place where you did it. That would indeed be manifest nonsense.

The situation would be more analogous to a UK court banning you for driving at 110mph on a NSL single carriageway, and the Isle of Man applying that ban in the IoM, even though they allow people to drive at 100mph on their own NSL/derestricted roads. As it happens, the Manx do indeed apply such UK bans in their own territory..

R33dk said:

As the likelihood of me driving in Scotland ever again is unlikely in the extreme. I'm not wound up enough about this to research what convention under the ECHR has been breached, but I would imagine that hidden somewhere in the convention is a clause that says you will not be punished in a country where what you did is not illegal in that country.

There isn't, at least no in any sense which is relevant here. There's a right not to be punished except in accordance with the law as it stands at the time of the offence, but the law is pretty clear - if you want to keep your UK licence, don't drive in Scotland when you're a wee bit tipsy.

R33dk said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Simple solution - if you think your blood-alcohol is between 50 and 80, don't drive across the border into Scotland. Stay south of the border.

Not quite that simple, by all accounts

Red Devil said:

For example if you take the B6350 between Coldstream and Kelso rather than the A698 you cross the border twice. The border runs along the Tweed at Coldstream. Cross the bridge and you're in England. Half way along the B6350 and the border swings abruptly south along the tiny Carhm Burn. There appears to be no sign to tell a visitor from England unfamiliar with the area that he/she is re-entering Scotland (there is in the opposite direction though!).

That would be a very good point if the offence was one which required intent, but it doesn't. As it stands the onus is on you to make sure you stay out of Scotland. If you're not sure where the border is you can use a map - or just err on the side of caution.

[agtlaw]

Or make a run for the border.

[Nigel Worc's]

agtlaw said:

Or make a run for the border.

Will our legal system actually allow something as odd as this proposal ?

[gowmonster]

compare it to speeding,

I'm Scottish, if I'm down in England and get caught speeding, I am aware the laws are different, I can get offered a speed awareness course instead of points etc, and up until 2012 I could get clamped for parking on private land etc. Different laws.

Its not the fact that it's not law where you live, it's the fact that it's the law where you get caught.

Up until 2012 the Drink driving laws were different anyway, you had to provide 2 specimens of breath in England, but only 1 in Scotland.

[Cat]

gowmonster said:

Up until 2012 the Drink driving laws were different anyway, you had to provide 2 specimens of breath in England, but only 1 in Scotland.

No they weren't, 2 specimens were required in Scotland too.

Cat

[TooMany2cvs]

rs1952 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Simple solution - if you think your blood-alcohol is between 50 and 80, don't drive across the border into Scotland. Stay south of the border.

Not quite that simple, by all accounts

Red Devil said:

For example if you take the B6350 between Coldstream and Kelso rather than the A698 you cross the border twice. The border runs along the Tweed at Coldstream. Cross the bridge and you're in England. Half way along the B6350 and the border swings abruptly south along the tiny Carhm Burn. There appears to be no sign to tell a visitor from England unfamiliar with the area that he/she is re-entering Scotland (there is in the opposite direction though!).

So, yes, it IS that simple. That road takes you across the border into Scotland. Don't take it if you're between 50 and 80.

I live in the borders, less than half a mile from "a different country". My local supermarket's car park is half-and-half. I'm well aware of how wiggly some back roads are...

Oh, and not EU but as far as varying drink-drive limits...
http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/impaired_l...

[gowmonster]

Cat said:

No they weren't, 2 specimens were required in Scotland too.

Cat

Relly? maybe they only take a second if you fail the first then, I've only been asked to give one sample. I stand corrected then.

[Cat]

One preliminary specimen is taken at the roadside, if that is positive then a further 2 evidential samples are taken at the police station. The lower of the 2 specimens obtained at the police station is used. This is the same procedure as in England and Wales and always has been.

Cat

[W124Bob]

The Network Rail limit is 29mg per 100ml(has been for many years) which is effectively zero. The understanding is it's psychically impossible to go any lower as the human body produces low levels of alcohol naturally. This limit applies to anyone undertaking safety critical work within in the railway regardless of who they work for, IE drivers,guards,signallers as well as those actually on the track. Random drug and aclohol takes place as including post incident (anyone even remotely involved) testing. Also any medical testing involves a test.

Edited by W124Bob on Thursday 27th November 14:16

[MagneticMeerkat]

sim72 said:

To be fair, it is a good point. Worcestershire does not have differing laws to the rest of England. Scotland has passed a law which is different from the rest of the UK. Now I can quite understand that if you're caught with, say 60mg in Scotland, you get a ban from Scottish roads. But why should that ban apply in England and Wales, where it's not an offence? I strongly suspect the first one of these that goes to the EHCR will lose.

Worcestershire DOES have different laws to elsewhere in England!!!!

As do other counties such as Essex. I use Essex as an example because I live there. And it's an awesome county but I digress.

For example, in Essex, it's legal for any tax exempt vehicle to use a council car park for free. Therefore a vintage car doesn't have to display a ticket. I don't know why this is, but it's a byelaw peculiar to Essex. Try that elsewhere and you'll get fined.

Continuing the theme there are legal ramifications attached to crabbing on the Mersea Island pontoon. Like where one can crab etc.

None of this applies in Worcestershire. I'm sure they have their own byelaws.

Ditto Scotland can, and will, have a lower drink driving limit.

[Nigel Worc's]

MagneticMeerkat said:

Worcestershire DOES have different laws to elsewhere in England!!!!

As do other counties such as Essex. I use Essex as an example because I live there. And it's an awesome county but I digress.

For example, in Essex, it's legal for any tax exempt vehicle to use a council car park for free. Therefore a vintage car doesn't have to display a ticket. I don't know why this is, but it's a byelaw peculiar to Essex. Try that elsewhere and you'll get fined.

Continuing the theme there are legal ramifications attached to crabbing on the Mersea Island pontoon. Like where one can crab etc.

None of this applies in Worcestershire. I'm sure they have their own byelaws.

Ditto Scotland can, and will, have a lower drink driving limit.

But Scotland are imposing their new law on England & Wales.

Can anyone point out another EU Country that does this ?

We won't need Westminster soon, it looks like Edinburgh will be setting our traffic laws.

[TooMany2cvs]

Nigel Worc's said:

But Scotland are imposing their new law on England & Wales.

No, they aren't. Any new Scottish drink-drive limit is only enforceable in Scotland.

[Nigel Worc's]

TooMany2cvs said:

Nigel Worc's said:

But Scotland are imposing their new law on England & Wales.

No, they aren't. Any new Scottish drink-drive limit is only enforceable in Scotland.

But but but, it would appear it isn't, it would appear they have the power to ban you from the roads of England & Wales for being above their limit, but below the one in England & Wales.

[TooMany2cvs]

Nigel Worc's said:

But but but, it would appear it isn't

You seem to be confused between where that particular limit applies - Scotland - and the fact that a ban for exceeding the drink-drive limit (whatever it might be) applies to the whole of the country.

If, next year, you drive a truck at 50mph on an NSL single carriageway, you won't be exceeding the speed limit. Unless you're in Scotland where the limit isn't being changed. Get banned for that, the ban will similarly apply nationally.

Nigel Worc's said:

it would appear they have the power to ban you from the roads of England & Wales for being above their limit, but below the one in England & Wales.

Correct. Any driving ban issued by a UK court applies to the whole UK.

Anyway, aren't you forgetting about Northern Ireland?

[Nigel Worc's]

TooMany2cvs said:

Correct. Any driving ban issued by a UK court applies to the whole UK.

This can't work if the rules are different, which is where I see a problem.

I couldn't care less what the jocks do in Scotland, but I do care about what they do in the rest of the UK.

If they want a different DD limit, the limit and any punishment regarding exceeding it should only apply to Scottish roads.

[TooMany2cvs]

Nigel Worc's said:

I couldn't care less what the jocks do in Scotland, but I do care about what they do in the rest of the UK.

But the "jocks" aren't changing ANYTHING in the rest of the UK. You can drive on roads in England, Wales or NI with a blood alcohol between 50 and 80 with impunity. The "jocks" are only changing the limit in Scotland.

Whatever you get banned for by any UK court, it applies across the whole country, not just within that court's region. Whether you'd have been banned - or even prosecuted - for it elsewhere in the UK. It's really not a very hard concept.

But, fwiw, I think having your licence removed from you should apply globally, not just within the one country...

[Nigel Worc's]

TooMany2cvs said:

But the "jocks" aren't changing ANYTHING in the rest of the UK. You can drive on roads in England, Wales or NI with a blood alcohol between 50 and 80 with impunity. The "jocks" are only changing the limit in Scotland.

yes they are, they are proposing to ban someone from driving on the roads of England & Wales for driving below the drink drive limits in England & Wales.

If they want different rules, then they should only have authority regarding driving on the roads they control.

I suspect it hasn't been an issue until now, as rather sensibly the rules have been the same.

It is going to become very silly if we allow different regions of the UK to have different traffic laws, and then impose sanctions covering the whole of the UK.

[Corpulent Tosser]

It will be interesting if an English resident gets banned for being between 50 and 80 mg/ml in Scotland and contests the ban in an English court.

I think it is an unnecessary change in the laws and only being done as SNP want to be seen to be doing things different from the rest of UK.