996 Turbo disappointment after M3. Am I missing something?
Discussion
Hi all,
Couldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
Couldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
Onetrackmind said:
Hi all,
Couldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
If you want playful, creative and input=output them yeah, what they said ... RWD, NA, low weight and preferably no nanniesCouldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
A good C2 or GTS/GT3 has way more feel and connection an M3 (E30 excluded)
Edited by jackal on Wednesday 19th November 20:13
I have had a few Porsches but am no means a Porsche fan boy.
My honest opinion? The most recent 911 Turbos are boring (that is 996, 997 Gen 1 and 991). The only exception i found was the Gen 2 Turbo S i had. I also had a Gen 1 Carrera S and thought it was terrible to drive; hard ride, no front end bite... again it was the Gen 2 which was the exception.
If you need to stick around the £30k mark I would stick to M3s and get an M3 CSL. As a drive it betters any Porsche up to a 997 GT3. And if you are worried the CSL is too much like your old cars, don't be, they look similar but that's about it!
My honest opinion? The most recent 911 Turbos are boring (that is 996, 997 Gen 1 and 991). The only exception i found was the Gen 2 Turbo S i had. I also had a Gen 1 Carrera S and thought it was terrible to drive; hard ride, no front end bite... again it was the Gen 2 which was the exception.
If you need to stick around the £30k mark I would stick to M3s and get an M3 CSL. As a drive it betters any Porsche up to a 997 GT3. And if you are worried the CSL is too much like your old cars, don't be, they look similar but that's about it!
You bought the wrong car.
911 Turbos have always been about mega speed, but with refinement and lux. With the 993 Turbo, AWD just added to that USP.
So, 996 Turbo was designed to be quiet and fast in a no-surprises, composed kind of way. It was designed so that you could floor it in the wet to overtake a long line of shunters without soiling your armour, and so that you could arrive at your daughters private school carpark without sounding like you were trying too hard, having had a conversation with her on the way there while the bose played Radio 4. This is how mine serves me and I like it. This is why 997 and 991 Turbos are also quiet, safe and devastatingly fast.
996T isnt about being fully commited through brunchen, but people don't seem to get that. They aren't wobbly soft GT cars though and you can still have a load of fun in one, especially if it is pissing down. I think Richard Porter summed it up well in saying that the fun of a modern Turbo 911 is the ridiculous velocity with which propels you between corners, and that this takes all your concentration to manage, as opposed to setting it up, and moving it around on the throttle, and other wheelman stuff.
You should have bought a GT3, but as they are now NLA unless you have 50 grand, you should have bought a Manual 996C2 with sport exhaust and short shift kit, but because you would fret about the engine, you perhaps maybe should have bought a 964 C2 on Kw suspension with a cat bypass. Have you considered a BMW?
I think 996T's can be made pretty rude with exhaust/suspension/remap of course. On the plus side as well, prices are rock solid so you can look at it as an itch scratched for nothing!
911 Turbos have always been about mega speed, but with refinement and lux. With the 993 Turbo, AWD just added to that USP.
So, 996 Turbo was designed to be quiet and fast in a no-surprises, composed kind of way. It was designed so that you could floor it in the wet to overtake a long line of shunters without soiling your armour, and so that you could arrive at your daughters private school carpark without sounding like you were trying too hard, having had a conversation with her on the way there while the bose played Radio 4. This is how mine serves me and I like it. This is why 997 and 991 Turbos are also quiet, safe and devastatingly fast.
996T isnt about being fully commited through brunchen, but people don't seem to get that. They aren't wobbly soft GT cars though and you can still have a load of fun in one, especially if it is pissing down. I think Richard Porter summed it up well in saying that the fun of a modern Turbo 911 is the ridiculous velocity with which propels you between corners, and that this takes all your concentration to manage, as opposed to setting it up, and moving it around on the throttle, and other wheelman stuff.
You should have bought a GT3, but as they are now NLA unless you have 50 grand, you should have bought a Manual 996C2 with sport exhaust and short shift kit, but because you would fret about the engine, you perhaps maybe should have bought a 964 C2 on Kw suspension with a cat bypass. Have you considered a BMW?
I think 996T's can be made pretty rude with exhaust/suspension/remap of course. On the plus side as well, prices are rock solid so you can look at it as an itch scratched for nothing!
Edited by Johnny G Pipe on Wednesday 19th November 21:16
So glad u guys posted that!!
Always wanted a 911 .... so saved up and bought a mint 996 Turbo X50.
Is is fast? Yes
Is it fun? No ....
Do i feel like i must be missing something? YES!
But maybe I'm not?
Its blisteringly quick, looks really good.... but I've just not bonded with it at all.
Ive had a lot more fun driving my old integra type r ... not as fast by a long shot, but made me smile every trip.
This 450bhp beast is just going to end up costing me my licence i feel!
Time to consider selling up... but what to get next is my issue.
Always wanted a 911 .... so saved up and bought a mint 996 Turbo X50.
Is is fast? Yes
Is it fun? No ....
Do i feel like i must be missing something? YES!
But maybe I'm not?
Its blisteringly quick, looks really good.... but I've just not bonded with it at all.
Ive had a lot more fun driving my old integra type r ... not as fast by a long shot, but made me smile every trip.
This 450bhp beast is just going to end up costing me my licence i feel!
Time to consider selling up... but what to get next is my issue.
Ursicles said:
Ive had a lot more fun driving my old integra type r ... not as fast by a long shot, but made me smile every trip.
One of the best drivers' car. Ever. I'm yet to find its rwd equivalent. If you want to go left field, a TVR would fulfil the drivers' car bit. A Noble to a lesser extent, or as other have said a CSL. I think a manual CS is also a very good car.
Ursicles said:
Used to have a 330 clubsport which i loved.
The CS is top of my list.... but prices have risen a fair amount, and trying to find a good conditioned manual CS is tricky.
I had a 330ci clubsport brilliant car. Decided one day i would get myself something a bit more powerful. After spending 6 months trying to find a half decent E46 M3 I gave up and booked myself a track experience in an E92 M3 and an 996tt. The E92 had a quality feel about it, the engine was great but i thought too heavy and didn't like the body roll i was getting when pushing on. Driving the 996tt was truly heartbreaking, after reading countless reviews i had built it up to be something it wasn't and to this day i want to believe i drove just a very bad example. Brakes were so so, power to me on track at least nothing special (I'm used to sport bikes), hideous turbo lag when using a higher gear, the plasticky buttons on the steering for changing gear utter pants. Wasn't sure where to go next, long story short, despite all the doom mongering about the engines, drove a 07 Cayman S and fell in love, don't see myself buying anything else. Much lighter car, right amount of power, corners on rails, lacks a bit of sparkle (e.g. exhaust noise) but nothing you can't sort with some basic mods.The CS is top of my list.... but prices have risen a fair amount, and trying to find a good conditioned manual CS is tricky.
Edited by Ursicles on Wednesday 19th November 21:58
I went from an E46 M3 to a 996 C4S. I found the E46 quite playfull but also bloody frustrating. With the stability control on, it's constantly interfering. On the road, with it off, it was great fun for playing but frustrating that traction was so low. Also a bit anti social as it's 'moving about underneath you' everywhere.
I'm thinking about buying another E46 for messing about and as track car. But as fast daily driver car the porsche is way better IMHO.
I've not owned a 911 turbo but they seem to be all about sheer, usable pace. If that isn't what you wanted, you may well be in the wrong car.
I'm thinking about buying another E46 for messing about and as track car. But as fast daily driver car the porsche is way better IMHO.
I've not owned a 911 turbo but they seem to be all about sheer, usable pace. If that isn't what you wanted, you may well be in the wrong car.
Onetrackmind said:
Hi all,
Couldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
Ultimately your issue is that you've bought a much better car. Couldn't decide to put this in the M Power or 911 forum so it's going in both!
I've recently bought a 996 turbo having previously owned two E46 M3's and still owning an E36 M3 3.0 (which was going to go up for sale soon). I've really enjoyed the three M3's but always fancied a 911 and when a turbo came up at a good price I took the plunge and bought it. I didn't originally want a turbo as I thought I'd be quite happy with a Carrera 2 996. However, the turbo was at a good price and avoided the potential engine troubles that put me off a Carrera. On first impressions with the 996 tt I was in love with the supercar looks and more exotic experience over the M3's but now I'm having second thoughts. I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners and allow you to feel like you could drive close to the limit. By comparison, the 996 tt is much more planted in the corners and somehow doesn't feel as fun. I've no doubt it's quicker than the M3's but I kind of miss the FR layout and 'hooligan' driving experience. Also, the 996tt is a bit quiet compared to screaming straight six of the Beemer.
Should I just give the 996tt more time and fit a performance exhaust or have I just bought the wrong car?if so, I'll get myself back into an E46 M3 soon. I read about 911 owners saying the driving experience takes longer to learn but ultimately being more satisfying but I'm not sure I 'get it' yet.
"Better" in a specific sense: the 996T allows you to drive very, very fast, in pretty much all conditions, without the car getting upset. So "better" means better balanced, better composed, faster, and easier to drive at speed. For some people those qualities aren't qualities at all, and equate to a worse car, not a better one.
You can get a 996T out of shape, sure, but you have to go be going *very* quickly, and driving provocatively. Not the sort of thing you want to be doing on a public road.
If that's not what you want, you've bought the wrong car.
Spend a day at Millbrook with CAT driver training. They will open your eyes as to what a 996T can do. It's the best money I spent when I had mine.
PS: the exhaust note of a standard 996T is pants. I used to describe mine as sounding like a giant Dyson vacuum cleaner.
I always find these threads a bit odd
Even if I had never driven either if I was swapping an M3 for a modern 911 turbo of whatever flavour I would know to expect:
Faster
Less fruity exhaust tone
Less rwd playfulness
More 4wd traction and grip
Higher limits
Less interior space
Different badge on the front
Why would any of these be a surprise to a PHer?
Even if I had never driven either if I was swapping an M3 for a modern 911 turbo of whatever flavour I would know to expect:
Faster
Less fruity exhaust tone
Less rwd playfulness
More 4wd traction and grip
Higher limits
Less interior space
Different badge on the front
Why would any of these be a surprise to a PHer?
Maybe this is a naive question but what do people generally think of as a 'fun' car to drive?
Does it mean it has an element of unpredictability?
I have had TVRs, Lotus Esprit turbo, Lotus Europa, 996C2 and several Ford RS cars in the past. They were quick but I wouldn't say 'fun' unless being driven on a track.
Is any car 'fun' on a normal road? My 996turbo is alarmingly quick and reassuringly forgiving
compared with other cars. It probably needs a little less driver input as the car is designed to be.
The people who want 'fun' 'involving' cars isn't that like saying "I don't a tv with a remote control, I feel less involved I liked the old days of walking to the tv and clunking the channel buttons on the tv front" ?
As I said at the start of this post. I might be missing something.
Does it mean it has an element of unpredictability?
I have had TVRs, Lotus Esprit turbo, Lotus Europa, 996C2 and several Ford RS cars in the past. They were quick but I wouldn't say 'fun' unless being driven on a track.
Is any car 'fun' on a normal road? My 996turbo is alarmingly quick and reassuringly forgiving
compared with other cars. It probably needs a little less driver input as the car is designed to be.
The people who want 'fun' 'involving' cars isn't that like saying "I don't a tv with a remote control, I feel less involved I liked the old days of walking to the tv and clunking the channel buttons on the tv front" ?
As I said at the start of this post. I might be missing something.
Edited by Storm996 on Wednesday 19th November 23:46
Good question, I don't track my car or wish to experiment with 4 wheel drift or oversteer on the public road.
I find my 997 turbo which I find lots of fun - always feels special, has good steering feel, nicely weighted controls, great gearchange with its sports shifter and hilarious levels of acceleration and grip. All great fun.
I find my 997 turbo which I find lots of fun - always feels special, has good steering feel, nicely weighted controls, great gearchange with its sports shifter and hilarious levels of acceleration and grip. All great fun.
Edited by Adam B on Friday 21st November 12:06
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