Hare-brained safety 'improvement' scheme results in tragedy
Discussion
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
Stick to talking about what you know about, rather than sounding like a Facebook drama queen victim.
ETA Have another
ETA2 Who do you think the politicians come to, to consult on the impacts and outcomes of engineering changes? When was the last time you spoke to an MP, or even merely a Councillor, about transport and infrastructure changes? For me, it was Friday.
Edited by OpulentBob on Monday 24th November 08:51
What do I know about planning of UK roads? I know that the planning process is generally incoherent and shambolic, witness the endless works to widen the M25 over the last 30 years. Get it right first time please Bob, it's not that difficult.
V8 Fettler said:
I know that the planning process is generally incoherent and shambolic, witness the endless works to widen the M25 over the last 30 years. Get it right first time please Bob, it's not that difficult.
Nimbyism doesn't help a lot with planning, Read the HS2 threads. There's many a congested motorway out there that was branded a waste of cash and a white elephant as the traffic 'wasn't there'.
I don't see people apologising for the motorways now just complaining there not big enough, that's if they're not complaining that they shouldn't be there anyway
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
Stick to talking about what you know about, rather than sounding like a Facebook drama queen victim.
ETA Have another
ETA2 Who do you think the politicians come to, to consult on the impacts and outcomes of engineering changes? When was the last time you spoke to an MP, or even merely a Councillor, about transport and infrastructure changes? For me, it was Friday.
Edited by OpulentBob on Monday 24th November 08:51
What do I know about planning of UK roads? I know that the planning process is generally incoherent and shambolic, witness the endless works to widen the M25 over the last 30 years. Get it right first time please Bob, it's not that difficult.
tty phrase, we're not in America), my profession, and for some bizarre reason you think the M25 is my fault?Standard response to you...
Again, I ask, what do you know about highway engineering, maintenance, improvements etc, and managing it whilst still keeping roads open and traffic flowing?
My meeting with an MP actually decided the outcome of a scheme and the timetable for implementation, whilst bearing in mind legal agreements, land purchase, traffic orders, public enquiries, etc, in the face of heavy local opposition. But then it's not hard to convince an MP that NIMBYism isn't at all helpful.
But why don't you just ignore all that and carry on trying to condescend me whilst playing the victim? Good lad.
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
V8 Fettler said:
OpulentBob said:
Stick to talking about what you know about, rather than sounding like a Facebook drama queen victim.
ETA Have another
ETA2 Who do you think the politicians come to, to consult on the impacts and outcomes of engineering changes? When was the last time you spoke to an MP, or even merely a Councillor, about transport and infrastructure changes? For me, it was Friday.
Edited by OpulentBob on Monday 24th November 08:51
What do I know about planning of UK roads? I know that the planning process is generally incoherent and shambolic, witness the endless works to widen the M25 over the last 30 years. Get it right first time please Bob, it's not that difficult.
tty phrase, we're not in America), my profession, and for some bizarre reason you think the M25 is my fault?Standard response to you...
Again, I ask, what do you know about highway engineering, maintenance, improvements etc, and managing it whilst still keeping roads open and traffic flowing?
My meeting with an MP actually decided the outcome of a scheme and the timetable for implementation, whilst bearing in mind legal agreements, land purchase, traffic orders, public enquiries, etc, in the face of heavy local opposition. But then it's not hard to convince an MP that NIMBYism isn't at all helpful.
But why don't you just ignore all that and carry on trying to condescend me whilst playing the victim? Good lad.
My experience of construction and engineering? I'm not going to willy wave, but I've built a patio, and it worked.
V8 Fettler said:
I know that the UK is plagued by poor planning of the trunk road network, see original construction (followed by endless widening) of the M25 for an example.
You need to read up on induced demand.Seriously - it helps explain why road planning is incredibly difficult compared to almost any other form of supply-demand planning I have ever studied.
It also makes it pretty clear why adding lanes doesn't ease congestion anywhere near as much as you might hope.
Even if God waved his magic wand and gave us a 16-lane-each-way-all-the-way-round M25 instantly, by next Sunday it would be the usual mess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
That and NIMBYs obviously.
walm said:
You need to read up on induced demand.
Seriously - it helps explain why road planning is incredibly difficult compared to almost any other form of supply-demand planning I have ever studied.
It also makes it pretty clear why adding lanes doesn't ease congestion anywhere near as much as you might hope.
Even if God waved his magic wand and gave us a 16-lane-each-way-all-the-way-round M25 instantly, by next Sunday it would be the usual mess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
That and NIMBYs obviously.
One of the issues with multi lane motorways is the cretins that use them. There would be far less need for constructing additional lanes if people learned to drive properly. The M25 widenings have merely shifted the former MLMs and the outside lane camel trains one lane to the right. It's frequently quicker to use Lane 1. I remember this rightward shift being particularly noticeable when they made the A1 4 lanes from Alconbury to the A15 junction near Yaxley.Seriously - it helps explain why road planning is incredibly difficult compared to almost any other form of supply-demand planning I have ever studied.
It also makes it pretty clear why adding lanes doesn't ease congestion anywhere near as much as you might hope.
Even if God waved his magic wand and gave us a 16-lane-each-way-all-the-way-round M25 instantly, by next Sunday it would be the usual mess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
That and NIMBYs obviously.
walm said:
V8 Fettler said:
I know that the UK is plagued by poor planning of the trunk road network, see original construction (followed by endless widening) of the M25 for an example.
You need to read up on induced demand.Seriously - it helps explain why road planning is incredibly difficult compared to almost any other form of supply-demand planning I have ever studied.
It also makes it pretty clear why adding lanes doesn't ease congestion anywhere near as much as you might hope.
Even if God waved his magic wand and gave us a 16-lane-each-way-all-the-way-round M25 instantly, by next Sunday it would be the usual mess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
That and NIMBYs obviously.
Getting the basics right would be good start: A14, Dartford crossing, that strange bit at the south end of the M11 where 3 lanes go down to 2 and then back up to 3 (used to be back up to 4). I'm sure the cart tracks ooopp north could do with some good design as well.
V8 Fettler said:
I'm sure the cart tracks ooopp north could do with some good design as well.
Oh dear, Sadly on cost benefit etc more people are/travel down south so technically 'all the investment' should be on the M25 and it's environs, to try and rebalance the fook up that is the South, investment is made on 'cart tracks' ooopp north to encourage growth see the A1M cart track etc if you can find it on a map. It's also slightly easier to build as due to being less populated there are less Nimbys, less cost and due to less traffic fewer environmental issues ie "the big EU air quality directive" problem to get around (read up on M1 road expansion).
But as you know all of that and the reasons why things are all unplanned I'll let you carry on.
speedyguy said:
V8 Fettler said:
I'm sure the cart tracks ooopp north could do with some good design as well.
Oh dear, Sadly on cost benefit etc more people are/travel down south so technically 'all the investment' should be on the M25 and it's environs, to try and rebalance the fook up that is the South, investment is made on 'cart tracks' ooopp north to encourage growth see the A1M cart track etc if you can find it on a map. It's also slightly easier to build as due to being less populated there are less Nimbys, less cost and due to less traffic fewer environmental issues ie "the big EU air quality directive" problem to get around (read up on M1 road expansion).
But as you know all of that and the reasons why things are all unplanned I'll let you carry on.
Been DIYing all weekend with no internet, this has moved on a bit. V8, in 1959 how many lanes do you think should have been built on the M1? Same goes for the M25 in the 80’s. 5,10,20?
Highway Engineering is extremely difficult; there are very few jobs out there that have 40 million critics, many who think they know better.
We don’t design schemes with the intention of causing congestion but unfortunately they sometimes do, this is because you must weigh up all user groups; pedestrians, cyclists, buses etc.
Taking the original example posted by the OP, I don’t know the circumstance (outside of what has been posted) but who is to say that the new cycle lanes won’t encourage cycling? There now might be a convenient and safe link into town that someone who was nervous can now use, therefore reducing a car journey. Start multiplying this and reducing our dependency on the car for short journeys, the average commute to work is 10.2 miles, easy distance for alternative means (and please don’t start with the “I carry 10 ton of bananas every day, how am I to use a bike?”). Try thinking of the bigger picture, not just how it affects your car.
Instead of ranting, why not start engaging in local politics and talk to your local highway unit. You will find 99.9% of us are car drivers and as Bob says, we don’t want to be stuck in traffic any more than you do.
Highway Engineering is extremely difficult; there are very few jobs out there that have 40 million critics, many who think they know better.
We don’t design schemes with the intention of causing congestion but unfortunately they sometimes do, this is because you must weigh up all user groups; pedestrians, cyclists, buses etc.
Taking the original example posted by the OP, I don’t know the circumstance (outside of what has been posted) but who is to say that the new cycle lanes won’t encourage cycling? There now might be a convenient and safe link into town that someone who was nervous can now use, therefore reducing a car journey. Start multiplying this and reducing our dependency on the car for short journeys, the average commute to work is 10.2 miles, easy distance for alternative means (and please don’t start with the “I carry 10 ton of bananas every day, how am I to use a bike?”). Try thinking of the bigger picture, not just how it affects your car.
Instead of ranting, why not start engaging in local politics and talk to your local highway unit. You will find 99.9% of us are car drivers and as Bob says, we don’t want to be stuck in traffic any more than you do.
Type R Tom said:
Been DIYing all weekend with no internet, this has moved on a bit. V8, in 1959 how many lanes do you think should have been built on the M1? Same goes for the M25 in the 80’s. 5,10,20?
Highway Engineering is extremely difficult; there are very few jobs out there that have 40 million critics, many who think they know better.
We don’t design schemes with the intention of causing congestion but unfortunately they sometimes do, this is because you must weigh up all user groups; pedestrians, cyclists, buses etc.
Taking the original example posted by the OP, I don’t know the circumstance (outside of what has been posted) but who is to say that the new cycle lanes won’t encourage cycling? There now might be a convenient and safe link into town that someone who was nervous can now use, therefore reducing a car journey. Start multiplying this and reducing our dependency on the car for short journeys, the average commute to work is 10.2 miles, easy distance for alternative means (and please don’t start with the “I carry 10 ton of bananas every day, how am I to use a bike?”). Try thinking of the bigger picture, not just how it affects your car.
Instead of ranting, why not start engaging in local politics and talk to your local highway unit. You will find 99.9% of us are car drivers and as Bob says, we don’t want to be stuck in traffic any more than you do.
M1? 3 lanes as per original concept calcs please.Highway Engineering is extremely difficult; there are very few jobs out there that have 40 million critics, many who think they know better.
We don’t design schemes with the intention of causing congestion but unfortunately they sometimes do, this is because you must weigh up all user groups; pedestrians, cyclists, buses etc.
Taking the original example posted by the OP, I don’t know the circumstance (outside of what has been posted) but who is to say that the new cycle lanes won’t encourage cycling? There now might be a convenient and safe link into town that someone who was nervous can now use, therefore reducing a car journey. Start multiplying this and reducing our dependency on the car for short journeys, the average commute to work is 10.2 miles, easy distance for alternative means (and please don’t start with the “I carry 10 ton of bananas every day, how am I to use a bike?”). Try thinking of the bigger picture, not just how it affects your car.
Instead of ranting, why not start engaging in local politics and talk to your local highway unit. You will find 99.9% of us are car drivers and as Bob says, we don’t want to be stuck in traffic any more than you do.
M25? 4 lanes as per original concept calcs please, with no lane drops, no excessive gradients, no ridiculous "wrong way round" junctions and a coherent approach to the Dartford crossing.
Engage with the Highways Agency and LA re: existing roads? I do, but it's an uphill struggle. The concept of contacting HA or LA is flawed, should be one contact point for the punter who pays for it all (me!). IME, HA and LA do not always accept there are safety-related maintenance issues unless photos issued, which is difficult when driving. Had some success with LA when emails copied to LA CEO. Also HA and LA have fundamentally flawed approaches to communicating eg they typically don't reply in a reasonable time frame. I could go on ...
V8 Fettler said:
M25? 4 lanes as per original concept calcs please...
Is that the 1911 plan? Or the one from 1937 when we had 2.4m cars in the UK.Or even the 1970s plans drawn up with determined opposition from the NIMBYs and during the oil crisis that decided on a dual three-lane standard.
Because I am sure that any of these would cope perfectly well with the 32m car parc we have today.
This is some of the lamest trolling I have ever seen.
walm said:
Is that the 1911 plan? Or the one from 1937 when we had 2.4m cars in the UK.
Or even the 1970s plans drawn up with determined opposition from the NIMBYs and during the oil crisis that decided on a dual three-lane standard.
Because I am sure that any of these would cope perfectly well with the 32m car parc we have today.
This is some of the lamest trolling I have ever seen.
1970s plan started at 4 lanes per carriageway, downgraded to 3 due to objections and oil crisis. M25 was not even a 3 lane m/way when constructed. 4 lanes would have been sufficient for most of the M25 to date without major works (bar Western section). Or even the 1970s plans drawn up with determined opposition from the NIMBYs and during the oil crisis that decided on a dual three-lane standard.
Because I am sure that any of these would cope perfectly well with the 32m car parc we have today.
This is some of the lamest trolling I have ever seen.
My personal favourite is the 1911 proposal for a 250 feet wide orbital, those Edwardians were excellent engineers. Ambitious with a long term view.
Trolling? Not at all, merely presenting an alternative view as a punter who pays for it all and then suffers the endless delays due to incompetence at all stages from initial design until year dot. Are you involved with the design of highways walm?
V8 Fettler said:
Engage with the Highways Agency and LA re: existing roads? I do, but it's an uphill struggle. The concept of contacting HA or LA is flawed, should be one contact point for the punter who pays for it all (me!). IME, HA and LA do not always accept there are safety-related maintenance issues unless photos issued, which is difficult when driving. Had some success with LA when emails copied to LA CEO. Also HA and LA have fundamentally flawed approaches to communicating eg they typically don't reply in a reasonable time frame. I could go on ...
V8 Fettler said:
a punter who pays for it all and then suffers the endless delays due to incompetence at all stages from initial design until year dot.
Can't for the life of me think why you can't get anywhere with the local Highway departmentGassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff