Coppers confessing

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George111

6,930 posts

250 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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Derek Smith said:
And all I had to do was pay in 12%+ of my gross pay (in real terms) for 30 years for it.
Still very, very cheap for what you get. Try getting a private pension which matches yours !

ShampooEfficient

4,266 posts

210 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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"You can beat a dog and make it stay, but its fear, not respect" "who cares so long as it's too scared to bite"...

Excellent posts Derek (and others).

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Friday 21st November 2014
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ShampooEfficient said:
"You can beat a dog and make it stay, but its fear, not respect" "who cares so long as it's too scared to bite"...
The dog who gets a beating probably cares, as would any other dog that might get a similar beating.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

45,512 posts

247 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
George111 said:
Derek Smith said:
And all I had to do was pay in 12%+ of my gross pay (in real terms) for 30 years for it.
Still very, very cheap for what you get. Try getting a private pension which matches yours !
If you read my post, you will see that I did, from a major credit card company.

Not only that, one person who did jump proved that it delivered on its promise.

There are major downsides to the old police pension as well. Get injured and you could lose all advantages and you end up much, much worse off than you would with a private pension.


Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Friday 21st November 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
There are major downsides to the old police pension as well.
Yep- every week I hear how bad it is. The press is full of stories about poor police pensions.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Friday 21st November 2014
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Rovinghawk + police talk = sleep

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Friday 21st November 2014
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Those currently on Police pensions can have no complaints. Signed up for mine at 19 and picked it up on my 49th birthday -ive never taken it for granted though paid well for it over the years. There have been a number of changes since in relation to contributions - now 14% - and officers have to serve longer to get less.
In relation to the documentary I worked through those days - good old days for many cops - not so good if you were on the other end of an arrest in many cases though there was more discretion not to arrest for a lot of minor stuff. Discretion that was taken away for many years in order to hit targets - now - in the main abolished in many forces.
Pay was god awful for my first five years and we had to serve under some fairly draconian discipline regs. Probabtioners could be sacked within the 1st 18 months with no appeal - this was open to abuse by management. Different society back then which had a very different Police service

XCP

16,875 posts

227 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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I agree with this. No complaints from me. Policing now is much more professional and regulated than it ever was 'back in the day'.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

45,512 posts

247 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
Bigends said:
Those currently on Police pensions can have no complaints. Signed up for mine at 19 and picked it up on my 49th birthday -ive never taken it for granted though paid well for it over the years. There have been a number of changes since in relation to contributions - now 14% - and officers have to serve longer to get less.
In relation to the documentary I worked through those days - good old days for many cops - not so good if you were on the other end of an arrest in many cases though there was more discretion not to arrest for a lot of minor stuff. Discretion that was taken away for many years in order to hit targets - now - in the main abolished in many forces.
Pay was god awful for my first five years and we had to serve under some fairly draconian discipline regs. Probabtioners could be sacked within the 1st 18 months with no appeal - this was open to abuse by management. Different society back then which had a very different Police service
I had two children in the 70s and had I had a third I would have been able to claim supplementary benefit (or called something similar) despite working all but three days a month, and on occasion more.

The problem was that the forces had to take virtually anyone who applied. One bloke who joined with me had pre-cons for what amounted to GBH with intent. This when he was in the army in Germany. No wonder there was so much corruption.

On the entrance exam I got the highest score ever recorded for the force (up until then) - graduates didn't have to sit it. That is frightening.

When I was a teenager, I was coming back home on the late night bus through Lewisham from the Richardson's pub. A Met car leapfroged the bus and stop any black from getting on it. Reap the whirlwind.

I have to say, though, I enjoyed those days. It seemed that I was working all the time with little or no paperwork. Lots of prisoners, lots of excitement, lots of good officers to work with. I have been to court many times (we used to prosecute our own offences) with the only paperwork being my note book. The problem was that those who wanted to fit someone up had a clear field.

One ex-Met DC who transfered to the City in the expectation that it would be less corrupt (that would be funny isf it wasn't so tragic) said that he was kicked out of the department when two others noticed a suited drunk gent get out of a cab with a full wallet. They were discussing rolling him. He then went up to the chap and put him in another taxi to take him home.

Other forces in Europe and around the world have been reticent to follow the lead given by English/Welsh police in combating corruption, but in many ways they were worse. I had friends who ran a licensed cafe in Rome. They had to pay the police and the local authority protection money, and feed and water (although never just water) any officer who came in, at any time, day or evening, on duty or off.

It was accepted.

What irritated me, and still does to an extent when the ignorant comment on here, was that CCTV and tape-recorded interviews were introduced with the full support of the vast majority of police officers. We all wanted it, yet the press (mainly left wing in those pre Cameron days) reports were that it was being forced on us. The prisoners supported it in the main and the only ones against it were the briefs.

If CCTV out of the streets had been introduced in the 70s without police knowledge then many officers would have been convicted of all sorts of offences. When it was introduced in Brighton the PCs loved it. Complaints dropped, or were withdrawn after the inspector said those magic words: 'I'll just pull the tapes of the incident and then get back to you.' Their response was always a laugh. They would be called spy cameras but it meant that PCs could do their job without worrying about spurious complaints. They would ask for a camera to focus in on them.

Yet, despite having the most honest police forces we've ever had in this country, and the treatment of prisoners being monitored 24/7, they've never been so vilified. Now, of course, it is all political. The massive reductions in police numbers and ability to prosecute crime being a deliberate policy of this government, or this PM rather, has to be justified somehow.

In reply to an earlier post, part of the reason there are few prosecutions of those taking care of prisoners (normally not police officers of course, apart from the custody officers) is that the CCTV is their saviour. As they knew it would be.

When things changed it was nice not to have to watch your back for the dishonest. Only the ambitious were a problem then, with their carelessness with others' careers when they saw an opportunity for advancement. But that's another story.

There was a good book about corruption in the City of London Police in the 70s and 80s. Only £2.


Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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Hmmm may have let those with pre-cons into the city or the Met - certainly not the county forces. I was vetted -my family was also vetted. If I was seen hanging around off duty with undesirables off duty i'd be strongly spoken with. When I asked for permission to marry - my future wife and her family were also looked at.

We were short staffed but didnt let recruiting standards drop. I'd had my driving course and was out driving Panda cars within 4 months of my return from training school

The job threatened to sack a mate of mine if he didnt stop going out with a girl who was from a rough family and whos brothers were always getting nicked, they finished up posting him40 odd miles to the other side of the county

Halfway through my time at training school, one of my classmates - married ex-forces bloke - didnt come back from the weekend leave. Found out he'd not disclosed a minor drunkenness offence which had happened years ago. He was returned to force and sacked.

Early 2000's I worked with two young Cops with precons - one for assault Police and the other indecent exposure. Both ok but nothing special - there must be sufficient unconvicted applicants out there that we dont have to employ those with records

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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Intresting and an eye opener. I am too young to know and wasnt even here but where there any/many revenge attacks on police by people (both innocent and crim) for ill treatment by the corrupt/criminal police back in the day?

I ask this because the thoughts that ran through my head after my experience with the police would have landed me in prison for a whole life term if they had been carried out.

Bear in mind there was no physical violence in my case, just a loss of liberty and money stolen but I felt so strongly about the experience so I can imagine how angry an innocent person will feel if they are stitched up and brutalized as a bonus

CCTV is a blessing but in recent experience it has become obvious that police will go to great lenghts to withold CCTV that implicates one of theirs.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

45,512 posts

247 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
Eclassy said:
Intresting and an eye opener. I am too young to know and wasnt even here but where there any/many revenge attacks on police by people (both innocent and crim) for ill treatment by the corrupt/criminal police back in the day?

I ask this because the thoughts that ran through my head after my experience with the police would have landed me in prison for a whole life term if they had been carried out.

Bear in mind there was no physical violence in my case, just a loss of liberty and money stolen but I felt so strongly about the experience so I can imagine how angry an innocent person will feel if they are stitched up and brutalized as a bonus

CCTV is a blessing but in recent experience it has become obvious that police will go to great lenghts to withold CCTV that implicates one of theirs.
The thin was that the police and criminals were hand in glove, literally working together. There were three jobs that were organised in the City and MPD: Williams and Glynn payroll, Telegraph payroll and Daily Mirror murder/payroll. For the last one every CID officer, plus the operational permanently armed patrol unit (me), were having a scenes of crime lecture organised by the senior CID ranker - and yes, that is a spelling mistake. The only CID out on the street were two aides to CID working with Shaw Taylor on Police 5. Expendable one assumes.

My unit was detailed to be on patrol as there was good information - excellent as it turned out - that an armed raid was going to take place in the City one morning.

There was a joke, not very funny, and in fact tragic. However, it went this way: You couldn't get a CID on the third Thursday of every month as that was Lodge night. But it didn't matter as you could not get a villain either.

Ha bloody ha if you were not one of the in crowd.


dacouch

1,172 posts

128 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
The thin was that the police and criminals were hand in glove, literally working together. There were three jobs that were organised in the City and MPD: Williams and Glynn payroll, Telegraph payroll and Daily Mirror murder/payroll. For the last one every CID officer, plus the operational permanently armed patrol unit (me), were having a scenes of crime lecture organised by the senior CID ranker - and yes, that is a spelling mistake. The only CID out on the street were two aides to CID working with Shaw Taylor on Police 5. Expendable one assumes.

My unit was detailed to be on patrol as there was good information - excellent as it turned out - that an armed raid was going to take place in the City one morning.

There was a joke, not very funny, and in fact tragic. However, it went this way: You couldn't get a CID on the third Thursday of every month as that was Lodge night. But it didn't matter as you could not get a villain either.

Ha bloody ha if you were not one of the in crowd.
Indeed my mum was telling me when a feature on the news recently about a corrupt officer that it had always been in the force as my father's uncle was the biggest fence in South London in the fifties and handed a brown envelope to the local inspector who distributed it to the relevant people in return for protection. Apparently his lock ups were raided on a number of occassions on each occasion he was waiting to allow the police into his empty lock up

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Parts of the Met were out of control in the late 1970s/early 1980s, and not just the Flying Squad. Catford nick was regarded as the Tower of Sauron by many saaarf London types: to be avoided at all costs, "No! Not Catford!". On the other hand, plod were certainly more efficient in responding to large scale unrest, although this approach probably led to the Brixton riots.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
We were going to do an armed raid on premises in the Met. However, the way in was dangerous for us.

We were deployed around the premises in cover and the inspector wandered off. Minutes later the phone rang inside and we all waited for the bloke to appear. But no show so we just protected the 'search team'.

My assumption was that the inspector had got the number and phoned it but no. It was rather more subtle than that.

He'd phoned the local CID, told them that we were about to go to the premises and advised them to keep clear.

And then the phone rang.


jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
The thin was that the police and criminals were hand in glove, literally working together. There were three jobs that were organised in the City and MPD: Williams and Glynn payroll, Telegraph payroll and Daily Mirror murder/payroll. For the last one every CID officer, plus the operational permanently armed patrol unit (me), were having a scenes of crime lecture organised by the senior CID ranker - and yes, that is a spelling mistake. The only CID out on the street were two aides to CID working with Shaw Taylor on Police 5. Expendable one assumes.

My unit was detailed to be on patrol as there was good information - excellent as it turned out - that an armed raid was going to take place in the City one morning.

There was a joke, not very funny, and in fact tragic. However, it went this way: You couldn't get a CID on the third Thursday of every month as that was Lodge night. But it didn't matter as you could not get a villain either.

Ha bloody ha if you were not one of the in crowd.
Sounds pretty exciting to me. I take it you weren't part of the in crown and now quite bitter?

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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Derek Smith.. When does this drama series you keep speaking of come onto our televisions and what's it called?

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

45,512 posts

247 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
jimbop1 said:
Sounds pretty exciting to me. I take it you weren't part of the in crown and now quite bitter?
I was never asked to join. I was once criticised by one DC, involved closely in a murder some say, by:

I thought you were a wide boy, now I find you as wide as narrow tape.

That came about when I had a bloke in court for an indictable offence so had to have a CID officer with me. The bloke was going NG but there was ample evidence. So no problem. I had produced a briefing doc for the DC. He turned up, glanced at it then wrote on the back of it, passed it to me and said: There's your pocket book entry.

I refused. There was an argument that was disturbing more for what was not said. Then the comment as above.

The bloke then took out two or three note books and copied from the brief I'd produced. As he was doing so the defendant's brief came it. I thought: Well that's the job gone. But the brief and the DC shook hands, the DC continued to write in his PNB and the brief was shown my briefing doc.

It was apparent that the bench knew what was going on and there were abnormalities with the evidence, but no one cared.

The problem was that there was no one to go to. The court would make their own records, most of those present would be in the frame so they'd lie.

I went to an inspector I thought was straight but it turned out that I was wrong.

Nowadays, although this could not happen now I know, I would go to any inspector, put a piece of paper in front of him or her and know that the report would go further. Then you were targeted.

I was personally threatened and so was my family. I was going to leave the job at that time but a chief super helped me out. Lovely bloke. Ex navy and nothing and no one stopped him doing what he thought was right.

My one regret is that I never thanked him enough.




oobster

7,065 posts

210 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/coatb...

A local'ish recent news item regarding a copper caught out.

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
oobster said:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/coatb...

A local'ish recent news item regarding a copper caught out.
In evidence, PC Niedzwiecka recalled: “A male answered. He was sleepy, drunk and confused. His face was red and I could smell alcohol from him. He and Constable Carmichael clearly knew each other.

“We went back to the police car and he told the controller there had been no reply. I was shocked and surprised as it was a lie. We sat there in silence, then I said, ‘it stinks’.

“He replied, ‘you don’t want to grass on another cop or you have no future in the police if something like that happens.’”

The bolded statement I feel is one of the biggest problems with the police. That unwritten code to protect each other regardless of being in the wrong or right.