Parking invoice question invoice dated from before Oct 2012
Discussion
Sorry,
I realise these are tedious, but I do have a question as i've been sent an invoice from a parking company for a claim made back in february 2012.. that now has a court reference on it and a request to attend a court in north london.
It has, for obvious reasons rather focused my attention on what to do next. Yes, I could pay, but the idea of paying a large sum of money for staying over by a handful of minutes is somewhat galling.
As of yet I have not contacted the company or the court but I was under the understanding that parking matters dating from before October 2012 were unenforcable under contract law. Is this the company trying it on, or do they have a legal resource to the county court?
Cheers,
DMN
I realise these are tedious, but I do have a question as i've been sent an invoice from a parking company for a claim made back in february 2012.. that now has a court reference on it and a request to attend a court in north london.
It has, for obvious reasons rather focused my attention on what to do next. Yes, I could pay, but the idea of paying a large sum of money for staying over by a handful of minutes is somewhat galling.
As of yet I have not contacted the company or the court but I was under the understanding that parking matters dating from before October 2012 were unenforcable under contract law. Is this the company trying it on, or do they have a legal resource to the county court?
Cheers,
DMN
There is widespread misunderstanding about the effect of statutory changes in relation to parking charges on private land. The contractual position has not changed. The party claiming the charge must still prove that it made a contract with the party it seeks to charge, and it is still open to that party to assert that the charge is a penalty and unenforceable, the actual loss sustained being small or none. The main change is that in some cirumstances a contractual liability can be enforced against the registered keeper of the car, even if he or she did not make the contract as he or she did not park the car, but there must be a contractuial liability in the first place.
Does the company have a claim? That depends on the facts, but in most cases the motorist has a strong argument that the amount claimed is a penalty, and most but not all cases claims of this kind fail or are abandoned.
Does the company have a claim? That depends on the facts, but in most cases the motorist has a strong argument that the amount claimed is a penalty, and most but not all cases claims of this kind fail or are abandoned.
drivin_me_nuts said:
Sorry,
i've been sent an invoice from a parking company for a claim made back in february 2012.. that now has a court reference on it and a request to attend a court in north london.
Hold on a second - you've received an invoice with a court reference number on it and a request to attend a court on or with the invoice?i've been sent an invoice from a parking company for a claim made back in february 2012.. that now has a court reference on it and a request to attend a court in north london.
Or, have you separately been written to by the court?
Something doesn't add up, as in the first instance, if a claim is issued, first contact is made from the court bulk processing centre(s).
Decide if you accept that there was a contract. Was your car parked where it is alleged? Did you see signs with parking rules on them (it matters not whether you read them) at a point when you could still have opted not to park? If you accept that there was a contract (and there often was), the key issues tend to be whether the amoount charged is a penalty (it usually is), and whether the company can prove real loss (it usually can't).
Ignore all the FOTL bollix on the parking loony websites about the company having no rights because it doesn't own the land or didn't use the right magic words etc. That's all made up by pub lawyers. Focus on the core contract and remedies points above.
Ignore all the FOTL bollix on the parking loony websites about the company having no rights because it doesn't own the land or didn't use the right magic words etc. That's all made up by pub lawyers. Focus on the core contract and remedies points above.
That is correct. Nowadays if there is a liability it can sometimes be enforced against the keeper. In your case, "not me guv" is a knock out defence. The assignment might be a point worth debating also, but the best point is "I made no contract with any of you lot, so GTFO". The only major change effected by the new rules is that privity pf contract in some cases is overriden so that a non party to the contract can be pursued.
Right,
home now with the form in front of me and TBO i'm not sure what to make of it.
For a start the form looks like a poor photocopy with a number of poorer copied sheets attached to the back of it.
It's for a company with the name Debt Enforcement And Action Limited. with my name as claimant. The bottom left of the form says Ni claim form ( CR Part7)(12.12) and then bottom right (c) Crown copyright 2012.
The top right has a box with Northampton something something - there is a sticker over it with a reference bar code and then an 8 digit reference.
Towards the bottom of the bottom of the form there is a box which indicated the court name for hearings
Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
Is there a way that I can find out from the reference number if this is a genuine count reference number of this particular company are playing mickey mouse with me.
The second page has a signature at the bottom from a solicitor.
The poorly photocopied sheets are about country court claim forms, your response sheet, attachment of earnings, defence and admission sheets that can be sent back. All these pages have N9 response pack written at the bottom of them.
Surely if a claim is registered in me in the court, using these references I should be able to find it 'somewhere' on line.
Something feels very wrong here. I'm sure the court process does not hand out a poor photocopy of a poor photocopy as a legal means of dialog.
Cheers,
DMN
home now with the form in front of me and TBO i'm not sure what to make of it.
For a start the form looks like a poor photocopy with a number of poorer copied sheets attached to the back of it.
It's for a company with the name Debt Enforcement And Action Limited. with my name as claimant. The bottom left of the form says Ni claim form ( CR Part7)(12.12) and then bottom right (c) Crown copyright 2012.
The top right has a box with Northampton something something - there is a sticker over it with a reference bar code and then an 8 digit reference.
Towards the bottom of the bottom of the form there is a box which indicated the court name for hearings
Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
Is there a way that I can find out from the reference number if this is a genuine count reference number of this particular company are playing mickey mouse with me.
The second page has a signature at the bottom from a solicitor.
The poorly photocopied sheets are about country court claim forms, your response sheet, attachment of earnings, defence and admission sheets that can be sent back. All these pages have N9 response pack written at the bottom of them.
Surely if a claim is registered in me in the court, using these references I should be able to find it 'somewhere' on line.
Something feels very wrong here. I'm sure the court process does not hand out a poor photocopy of a poor photocopy as a legal means of dialog.
Cheers,
DMN
Breadvan72 said:
That is correct. Nowadays if there is a liability it can sometimes be enforced against the keeper. In your case, "not me guv" is a knock out defence. The assignment might be a point worth debating also, but the best point is "I made no contract with any of you lot, so GTFO". The only major change effected by the new rules is that privity pf contract in some cases is overriden so that a non party to the contract can be pursued.
Considering the Claimant and the time scale involved, IMHO the assignment issue just muddies the water at this stage. If the 'debt' has been sold on, or simply moved to the next person's desk in the same office, then they are simply reaching for low hanging fruit.
I'd suggest they have a list of hundreds or thousands of unpaid 'debts', and they are making a calculated investment at the bulk claims centre in the hope that they will see a pie chart of 70% of people who pay up straight away, 20% of people who default and they get a CCJ so they can move it to the third persons desk for collection, and 10% who defend the claim.
In that kind of situation, then it makes it unprofitable for them to pay a hearing fee and send someone the other side of the country to fight a claim. Particularly where the defendant has an absolute defence.
I'd just deny that you entered into a contract, or that you were at the car park at the time alleged - and make sure if it's not done automatically that the claim is transferred to your home court.
drivin_me_nuts said:
Right,
home now with the form in front of me and TBO i'm not sure what to make of it.
For a start the form looks like a poor photocopy with a number of poorer copied sheets attached to the back of it.
It's for a company with the name Debt Enforcement And Action Limited. with my name as claimant. The bottom left of the form says Ni claim form ( CR Part7)(12.12) and then bottom right (c) Crown copyright 2012.
The top right has a box with Northampton something something - there is a sticker over it with a reference bar code and then an 8 digit reference.
Towards the bottom of the bottom of the form there is a box which indicated the court name for hearings
Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
Is there a way that I can find out from the reference number if this is a genuine count reference number of this particular company are playing mickey mouse with me.
The second page has a signature at the bottom from a solicitor.
The poorly photocopied sheets are about country court claim forms, your response sheet, attachment of earnings, defence and admission sheets that can be sent back. All these pages have N9 response pack written at the bottom of them.
Surely if a claim is registered in me in the court, using these references I should be able to find it 'somewhere' on line.
Something feels very wrong here. I'm sure the court process does not hand out a poor photocopy of a poor photocopy as a legal means of dialog.
Cheers,
DMN
Call the court and ask if this is legit. Use the claim number.home now with the form in front of me and TBO i'm not sure what to make of it.
For a start the form looks like a poor photocopy with a number of poorer copied sheets attached to the back of it.
It's for a company with the name Debt Enforcement And Action Limited. with my name as claimant. The bottom left of the form says Ni claim form ( CR Part7)(12.12) and then bottom right (c) Crown copyright 2012.
The top right has a box with Northampton something something - there is a sticker over it with a reference bar code and then an 8 digit reference.
Towards the bottom of the bottom of the form there is a box which indicated the court name for hearings
Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
Is there a way that I can find out from the reference number if this is a genuine count reference number of this particular company are playing mickey mouse with me.
The second page has a signature at the bottom from a solicitor.
The poorly photocopied sheets are about country court claim forms, your response sheet, attachment of earnings, defence and admission sheets that can be sent back. All these pages have N9 response pack written at the bottom of them.
Surely if a claim is registered in me in the court, using these references I should be able to find it 'somewhere' on line.
Something feels very wrong here. I'm sure the court process does not hand out a poor photocopy of a poor photocopy as a legal means of dialog.
Cheers,
DMN
It sounds a bit fishy to me.
ETA Is there a Particulars of Claim there?
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 21st November 16:18
If it was legit , you would receive forms direct from the court and not via a collection agency.
As another poster ring up the court and find out if it's fake.
Usually the defendant can ask that the hearing be heard at there local court which is part of the admin process along with medation etc
As another poster ring up the court and find out if it's fake.
Usually the defendant can ask that the hearing be heard at there local court which is part of the admin process along with medation etc
Righto,
I phones the court. Indeed legit. So, a defense form will be downloaded and filled in and posted off to their address. Lets see what happens next.
Thanks got all your help. Part of me thinks these companies work pretty much with the belief that the defendant will bin the letter and they win their claim.
We shall see.
I phones the court. Indeed legit. So, a defense form will be downloaded and filled in and posted off to their address. Lets see what happens next.
Thanks got all your help. Part of me thinks these companies work pretty much with the belief that the defendant will bin the letter and they win their claim.
We shall see.
drivin_me_nuts said:
Righto,
I phones the court. Indeed legit. So, a defense form will be downloaded and filled in and posted off to their address. Lets see what happens next.
Thanks got all your help. Part of me thinks these companies work pretty much with the belief that the defendant will bin the letter and they win their claim.
We shall see.
JustinP1 is spot on. The DCA is on a fishing trip hoping you will be frightened into coughing up.I phones the court. Indeed legit. So, a defense form will be downloaded and filled in and posted off to their address. Lets see what happens next.
Thanks got all your help. Part of me thinks these companies work pretty much with the belief that the defendant will bin the letter and they win their claim.
We shall see.
drivin_me_nuts said:
Towards the bottom of the bottom of the form there is a box which indicated the court name for hearings
Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
Be careful with this. The hearing should be at the defendant's local court but don't assume that the transfer will happen (it should be routinely done but mistakes happen). The DCA may be trying to pre-empt the location. If it does get as far as a hearing and you want to attend you might be seriously inconvenienced. Ensure you get it amended.Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre.
There is another issue here.
drivin_me_nuts said:
The company that is charging me bought the debt from another. Does that make a difference?
The DCA may be in breach of MoJ rules: see Section 3 - http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/c... - the Court shoulds be told about this. It wouldn't surprise me to find that other regulatory rules governing DCAs have been breached as well.I'd also look to see if you can have the case moved to your local court (assuming Barnet is not your local one) - will cost them more to come to you probably!
As others have said, if it's pre POFA then the liability rests with the driver. Could anyone else have been using that car that day? That said, it's a long time ago, and would you really be expected to remember if say, you regularly lent the vehicle to friends to use? Finally, I'd also point out the nature of the penalty, and the test case currently under way with Parking Eye vs Beavis, though this primarily leans towards commercial enforcement, not private. The unfair contract terms stuff would be another thing to sling in there also.
As others have said, if it's pre POFA then the liability rests with the driver. Could anyone else have been using that car that day? That said, it's a long time ago, and would you really be expected to remember if say, you regularly lent the vehicle to friends to use? Finally, I'd also point out the nature of the penalty, and the test case currently under way with Parking Eye vs Beavis, though this primarily leans towards commercial enforcement, not private. The unfair contract terms stuff would be another thing to sling in there also.
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