Cellulose vs Modern Two Pack on a Classic?

[mark beavan]

I have only sprayed 3 or 4 cars and the first one I did was a Cardinal Red Capri, using cellulose paint. It looked great just after polishing, but it faded quickly and needed polishing far more often than would have been ideal.
I have used 2 pack and will always recommend it as it is just so much more of a durable finish, not just because it's glossyness (pardon my poor vocabulary) remains constant, but I have also found it much more resistant to the inevitable scratches which occur if you use a car to actually drive around in.

[mark beavan]

Just to illustrate my above post re cellulose fading

[Pie with sauce]

Red is the weakest pigment Mark, so you see plenty of factory finishes displaying such fading. The best way if you want a deep, gleaming red is to (as you say) use 2K paint but use white undercoat.

But back to the reasons not to use cellulose, the weak red pigment and the resultant fading and chalkiness is a very important one, but in cellulose, this happens with other colours as well.

As I said, high maintenance.

[RichB]

Pie with sauce said:

Red is the weakest pigment Mark, so you see plenty of factory finishes displaying such fading. The best way if you want a deep, gleaming red is to (as you say) use 2K paint but use white undercoat.

But back to the reasons not to use cellulose, the weak red pigment and the resultant fading and chalkiness is a very important one, but in cellulose, this happens with other colours as well.

As I said, high maintenance.

That's interesting because the car is red and displays exactly the same marking as on that Capri when wet. The paint is 30 years old so I excuse it and polish it frequently to remove the marks but I don't particularly enjoy that aspect so it sounds like 2K is the way to go. Interested in anyone who has experience of adding a slight matting agent to get rid of the "looking through glass" aspect of the lacquer.

p.s. I've also just read elsewhere that 2K colour can be mixed with the lacquer and sprayed on as a solid colour rather than a flat base coat and a clear lacquer. Is this what I'm looking for? Excuse my non technical description...

Edited by RichB on Saturday 22 November 21:12

[Pie with sauce]

You're confusing "clear-over-base" with 2K (two-pack).

Clear-over base is normally (not always) used for metallic finishes.

So your 2K solid "red" will be the colour coat sprayed over the primer-surfacer. No clear lacquer involved!

[RichB]

Thanks... the chap who mentioned it was referring to an Old English White MGA that he sprayed. Didn't use a lacquer, so same as you said.

[RichB]

Pie with sauce said:

You're confusing "clear-over-base" with 2K (two-pack).

p.s. I am indeed confused because I know bugger all about paint but thought it would be useful to find out a little before I talk to the body shops.

p.p.s. but I do know how to adjust points and tune a triple SU carb set-up

[Pie with sauce]

Are you a bit clearer about it all now then?

[Shezbo]

It is not just the top coat that makes modern paints better. Remember the "whole" system used to achieve a (modern) paint finish makes them better, etch coats, primers, stone chip, hardeners etc. are all geared up to make the paint very durable.

Totally agree that modern car paints can be made to look like - old paint finishes.

[RichB]

Pie with sauce said:

Are you a bit clearer about it all now then?

Not entirely Clear over base is obviously what it says but I assume it's also two pack, yes? I guess I thought all two pack was applied clear over base. Didn't realise you could apply it without a clear lacquer.

[Pie with sauce]

Shezbo said:

It is not just the top coat that makes modern paints better. Remember the "whole" system used to achieve a (modern) paint finish makes them better, etch coats, primers, stone chip, hardeners etc. are all geared up to make the paint very durable.

Totally agree that modern car paints can be made to look like - old paint finishes.

Good post, fella.

RichB said:

Pie with sauce said:

Are you a bit clearer about it all now then?

Not entirely Clear over base is obviously what it says but I assume it's also two pack, yes? I guess I thought all two pack was applied clear over base. Didn't realise you could apply it without a clear lacquer.

Technically, when clear-over-base first came out, it was a polyester system (ie, not 2K but air-drying).

But to cut to the chase, let's try and wind up this thread. OP, nowadays, clear-over-base means a 2K lacquer over the basecoat. That's (usually) for a metallic colour.

You can also have a solid 2K colour.

2k means two-pack. So you have two-pack or cellulose.

OK?




(Other paint systems are available. Has no one mentioned synthetic yet?)

Stop, stop!

Edited by Pie with sauce on Saturday 22 November 22:25

[buzzer]

2 experiences to share on this one…

I have been a Cellulose man for 45 years… In my early days it’s all I ever used… but in the last 20 years I have done very little… the odd panel, a few motorcycle tanks and such… still in cellulose because that’s what I know…

Then earlier this year some kid hit the side of me and wrote my MX5 off. It’s a metallic car so it was clear over base, and although I was going to paint a full side, I decided to do it myself. I popped to see an old mate who paints cars for a living, and he said I have little choice but to use 2 pack. A little daunted at first, be he talked me through it. So I bought the materials and did it in my garage at home (please, no teeth sucking, tree hugging, H&S gestapo need to comment!)

What a revelation! So easy to use, minimal materials, and the best bit was the undercoat/primer! No mapping or repairs where you have used filler like in the old days, flats easily, through hardens quickly… great finish straight from the gun, easy! A few pictures below, I was very pleased with the result, and will never use cellulose again!

Second experience is talking to a mate who is restoring a BMW 2002. He has had the shell professionally stripped after doing MANY hours of panel/part panel replacement. As you can imagine there is a lot of filler in the car now… He has also had the shell professionally painted.

He initially asked for it to be painted in Cellulose, but the body shop said that’s no problem, but they won’t offer any warranty on the paint in terms of fading, and most importantly mapping around the repairs… they said they can polish out any mapping at first, but any subsequent sinking/shrinkage would not be covered. This was a problem I have suffered in the past. The price was also higher in cellulose. Oh, they also said colour matching in the future would be more of a problem…

My mate pondered over it for a while, he didn’t want that “too shiny” look though… but wanted the durability of the 2 pack. Then the body shop told him they can reduce the gloss easily, by using a course cutting compound on the finish after it had been painted. They showed him the effect on a freshly painted old wing… the cutting compound just took that shine away.

He was happy, so, the car got painted in 2 pack, and a very nice job it was! It’s taken 12 months to assemble the car, and I have to say it looks just superb! Not a mark or ripple anywhere! He did use a course compound on it… used by hand, and I have to say, it look just like it had been painted in cellulose! I will see if I can get some pictures...

[phlize]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the depth of shine you get with cello - and the belief that 'orange peel' finish is unacceptable although it is the norm with modern cars. I'm guessing that if you were looking for an easy life with respect to car maintenance you wouldn't have an old Aston anyway!

[Shezbo]

phlize said:

Nobody seems to have mentioned the depth of shine you get with cello - and the belief that 'orange peel' finish is unacceptable although it is the norm with modern cars. I'm guessing that if you were looking for an easy life with respect to car maintenance you wouldn't have an old Aston anyway!

Bit of a myth that Cellulose has more "shine" than modern car paints? If you want a flat, straight edged, mirror finish....neither product proves that straight from the gun. Both need to be "worked" i.e. flatted and polished.

I totally agree modern paints can look orange peel - however - Cellulose was no better when it came out Liverpool in the sixties. Modern paint plants give the finish NOT the product.

With a modern paint more product can easily be applied - once hardened this CAN be flatted and polished to give you the finish you need and the advantage is it will then stay like that for many years...who would not want that?

[buzzer]

Shezbo said:

phlize said:

With a modern paint more product can easily be applied - once hardened this CAN be flatted and polished to give you the finish you need and the advantage is it will then stay like that for many years...who would not want that?

Dyed in the wool types... you know the sort...


British bikes are still the best in the world...

Rover made some of the best cars ever...

The people who mourned the discontinuation of Duckhams Q 20-50

The rover K series is the best engine ever

Modern cars are rubbish, you cant fix them

The guy who told me last month that the tyres on his 1977 TR7 were original...

[tog]

The front half of my Bristol was repainted in two-pack (by Mitchell Motors - http://www.mitchellmotors.co.uk - highly recommended) after a prang about seven years ago. The back half is twenty-ish year old cellulose. If I ever get around to repainting the back (or the whole thing) I shall certainly go for two-pack. It looks great, it is far easier to keep clean and polished, and it seems harder wearing (when I polish the back half the cloth goes dark blue instantly so it is clearly taking more paint off).

[iSore]

Morris replaced cellulose with a synthetic enamel around 1951, and Vauxhall finally introduced Acrylic paints (single pack)in 1963 with the first Viva - theirs was called 'Magic Mirror'. By the mid sixties everything was painted at the factory in Acrylic paint.
Cellulose is nice but requires an incredible amount of prep before laying on 4-5 double coats with plenty of air drying time in between. It can then be flatted and polished to give a fantastic shine. Even better is if you have a warm and very clean, dust free booth where you can use a slow drying thinners for the last top coat - the slower the drying, the better the shine. It's more durable than it's given credit for but it does require regular waxing to keep nice and it's not as tough as 2 pack that is better for cars kept outdoors or used in all weathers.
However - water based 2 pack is not as good as the old stuff. Like Cellulose, you need to give filler repairs time to settle before priming, leaving that time to settle before painting. I'm having a car painted at the moment and it was left 3 weeks between stages, otherwise you can get 'fried eggs' in the paint (sinkage).
Clear coat over a solid colour is a great idea until the base coats fades - no amount of polishing will restore it. Red is a particular bd for that.
Whetever you do, do not be talked into synthetic enamel. That's for old lorries and tractors.

[RichB]

tog said:

The front half of my Bristol was repainted in two-pack (by Mitchell Motors - http://www.mitchellmotors.co.uk - highly recommended) after a prang about seven years ago. The back half is twenty-ish year old cellulose. If I ever get around to repainting the back (or the whole thing) I shall certainly go for two-pack. It looks great, it is far easier to keep clean and polished, and it seems harder wearing (when I polish the back half the cloth goes dark blue instantly so it is clearly taking more paint off).

Well there's a coincidence, it's Andy Mitchell I am probably going to use

p.s. Is your car looked after by Spencer Lane-JOnes?

[Talkwrench]

I think there is no question that 2 pack paints are far more durable than virtually any other finish. However, application and preparation is still very important. Whilst 2 pack can give a great finish and can be laid on far thicker than cellulose, allowing flatting and polishing to give a real glass-like finish, if you do lay it on thick, you lose all definition. You end up with a car that looks like a bucket of coloured plastic has been poured all over it - and that really does look artificial and awful! Most body shops - particularly if they spend every day knocking together accident damaged C-Max's, just won't do it correctly. Definition is absolutely critical on classics. Those edges on swathes, arches, flutes etc. have to be sharp otherwise the whole thing looks like a cheap fibreglass replica. So, cellulose if you must, acrylic if it is original and 2 pack if the body shop really know what they are doing.