This is getting ridiculous!

This is getting ridiculous!

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Discussion

Barnezy

Original Poster:

348 posts

114 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Is this for real? http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-for-sale/911/964...

I know people who like Porsche, REALLY like Porsche, but for this money you could have a 458, an Aventador and still have enough change for a daily runaround Range Rover.

Are people only buying these in the hope they will continue to rise in value or do they really believe a car made in the early 90's is worth this much money?

I remember meeting a guy in 2001 who had a collection of Lambo's. He showed me his collection and told me he was offered £250k for one of them by some sultan, which he had bought many years before for £20k. He turned the guy down thinking they would continue to rise and then the bottom fell out of the classic car market and he lost out on a lot of money. I wonder how long it'll be before that happens to these. Surely no one would ever pay £500k for a 964?..... crazy!

g7jhp

6,958 posts

237 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
These are basically the love child of a 964 turbo 3.3 and an 964RS.

Is this the Nick Faldo car?



Edited by g7jhp on Sunday 23 November 13:05

Barnezy

Original Poster:

348 posts

114 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
But where has this sudden love for old Porsche's come from? There were much better, more charismatic cars from this era then the 911. Is it purely the effect of Singer and Magnus Walker that are pushing these up, or is it the fact that Porsche is now a mass production car brand, building cars for the broadest demographic possible? I just don't understand the logic.

bigunit00

890 posts

146 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Barnezy said:
But where has this sudden love for old Porsche's come from? There were much better, more charismatic cars from this era then the 911. Is it purely the effect of Singer and Magnus Walker that are pushing these up, or is it the fact that Porsche is now a mass production car brand, building cars for the broadest demographic possible? I just don't understand the logic.
I would do a search mate. So many threads on how the market is illogical and prices crazy but cars do seem to sell. I think every option has been considered and discussed already.

IMI A

9,410 posts

200 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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Thats a unicorn. Very very rare lw 3.3 964 turbo. Less than 86 cars worldwide and rhd cars may be only 10 cars. Its not the Faldo car. Been to see it. Its lovely and its been used as Porsche intended.

g7jhp

6,958 posts

237 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Barnezy said:
But where has this sudden love for old Porsche's come from? There were much better, more charismatic cars from this era then the 911. Is it purely the effect of Singer and Magnus Walker that are pushing these up, or is it the fact that Porsche is now a mass production car brand, building cars for the broadest demographic possible? I just don't understand the logic.
My take is we're still bathing in the glow of the 911's 50th celebration. This has coincided with boom in classic car prices and suddenly any aircooled Porsche is the emperors new clothes.

As the truly rare 911's (73RS, 64RS, 3.2 Clubsport etc) have rocketed people have started spending on the run of the mill models and they've gone up.

The SC, 3.2 and 964 models were undervalued, but this has now flipped and I believe most are overvalued.

We'll see when we get the next economic downturn.

GT Two

3,070 posts

191 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Tis a lot of money but its a very rare car.

I personally couldn't spend that money on it and then drive and enjoy it afterwards, a new panel or bonnet costs the same as my 3.3 turbo thats worth possibly 10-15% of the cost.

Good value for an investor? I don't know about that but good value for a driver? definitely not.




Barnezy

Original Poster:

348 posts

114 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
In reality, is the rareness that important? Would anyone even notice you were driving a 1 of 100 ever made, or would they think "ohh there's another old 911 with a stupid bodykit"? Is the car that amazing to drive... I doubt it by today's standards.

The reason Porsche has so many rare cars is because they release about 10 variants of the same car, including some that don't make any sense and hence no one buys them and they become rare by default. This doesn't mean they are any good though.

People should be buying Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo's, cars from the 90's with meaning, that changed the car world, not a 911 turbo with a few things removed and an S put on the back..... very dull!

I'd love to understand the physiology of someone buying one of these.

Can you believe for £150k less you can buy an XJ220 from the same year, with less miles?! 1 of only 300 (and people know it) and a car that had far more impact on the world then a 964. http://www.joemacari.com/All-Cars-for-Sale/_prod_J...

GT Two

3,070 posts

191 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Barnezy said:
In reality, is the rareness that important? Would anyone even notice you were driving a 1 of 100 ever made, or would they think "ohh there's another old 911 with a stupid bodykit"? Is the car that amazing to drive... I doubt it by today's standards.

The reason Porsche has so many rare cars is because they release about 10 variants of the same car, including some that don't make any sense and hence no one buys them and they become rare by default. This doesn't mean they are any good though.

People should be buying Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo's, cars from the 90's with meaning, that changed the car world, not a 911 turbo with a few things removed and an S put on the back..... very dull!

I'd love to understand the physiology of someone buying one of these.

Can you believe for £150k less you can buy an XJ220 from the same year, with less miles?! 1 of only 300 (and people know it) and a car that had far more impact on the world then a 964. http://www.joemacari.com/All-Cars-for-Sale/_prod_J...
are you lost?

Barnezy

Original Poster:

348 posts

114 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
GT Two said:
are you lost?
No. I'm a Porsche fan, but when they are silly money like this, you have to compare them to what else there is out there. Maybe it is worth £425k and maybe a 2.7 RS is worth £2.5m. smile who and I to decide.

I think what's happened is Porsche has gone from a small, independent car builder that had a relatively small customer base c10k cars a year in 1993 to a mass production car company selling 162k cars in 2013. This has created a much larger fan base and all of a sudden the old cars are now very rare. And of course the Porsche marketing machine will continue to churn out limited editions like the Club Sport to keep this trend going in years to come. Clever stuff!

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Barnezy said:
But where has this sudden love for old Porsche's come from? There were much better, more charismatic cars from this era then the 911. Is it purely the effect of Singer and Magnus Walker that are pushing these up, or is it the fact that Porsche is now a mass production car brand, building cars for the broadest demographic possible? I just don't understand the logic.
Its pretty simple really. There is a growing love around the world for these cars and there are nowhere near enough to go around.

Supply and demand working its magic.

Wozy68

5,387 posts

169 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
bigunit00 said:
Barnezy said:
But where has this sudden love for old Porsche's come from? There were much better, more charismatic cars from this era then the 911. Is it purely the effect of Singer and Magnus Walker that are pushing these up, or is it the fact that Porsche is now a mass production car brand, building cars for the broadest demographic possible? I just don't understand the logic.
I would do a search mate. So many threads on how the market is illogical and prices crazy but cars do seem to sell. I think every option has been considered and discussed already.
Ok this is not the norm for aircooled Porsche , but just look at other 'classics' out there. Compared to a lot of other cars, aircooled Porsche and especially the 993 are a bit of a bargain. Saying that The 964 is going skywards by the day

Edited by Wozy68 on Sunday 23 November 17:24

hunter 66

3,886 posts

219 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Having raced and driven some of the more interesting Porsches ( RSR , GT2R , GT3 , RS etc ) , I think the all Air-cooled and old is great mantra is mislead there are many very average Porsches ........ but as investment it seems exciting ..

g7jhp

6,958 posts

237 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Barnezy said:
In reality, is the rareness that important? Would anyone even notice you were driving a 1 of 100 ever made, or would they think "ohh there's another old 911 with a stupid bodykit"? Is the car that amazing to drive... I doubt it by today's standards.

The reason Porsche has so many rare cars is because they release about 10 variants of the same car, including some that don't make any sense and hence no one buys them and they become rare by default. This doesn't mean they are any good though.

People should be buying Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo's, cars from the 90's with meaning, that changed the car world, not a 911 turbo with a few things removed and an S put on the back..... very dull!

I'd love to understand the physiology of someone buying one of these.

Can you believe for £150k less you can buy an XJ220 from the same year, with less miles?! 1 of only 300 (and people know it) and a car that had far more impact on the world then a 964. http://www.joemacari.com/All-Cars-for-Sale/_prod_J...
I certainly agree aircooled Porsche prices are at a peak, but can't put an XJ220 as a sensible alternative.

A Porsche 964 turbo (3.3) S is very rare, has a low ownership cost, is far more usable and Porsche has a larger global fan base.

Whether it's worth the money isn't my call.

Most of the other cars you mention (Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo) are interesting cars but aren't as well built, usable and their brand aren't as desirable as Porsche.


GT Two

3,070 posts

191 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
I stood back and looked at my 964 last weekend after a 130 mile spirited drive through the countryside chasing a 997 GT3 and thought to myself….. What other 20 year old cars would do this with 100k miles on them. Solid build quality and performance to keep a 997 honest.

Thoroughly enjoyable driving also!

DiscoColin

3,328 posts

213 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
A lot of people are thinking that these are being bought by people with a mindset for driving cars who care what it cost when new... One suspects that if you want to understand why the prices have gone nuts you should instead think of the rationale that people use to buy art. People who can afford whatever they want will pay £1 more than someone else to acquire it. Motivation can be childhood whim, genuine infatuation or an attempt at one-upmanship - but even at these silly numbers you can buy 150 of them for the price of the latest Gulfstream or 300 foot yacht. In a world where people pay 8 figure sums for flats... It can in theory get a lot more ridiculous than this.

As always with rare items - if you can find a better and cheaper example then feel free to buy it. Otherwise, the alarming number quoted is what it will cost you to own it. All it takes is for somebody to want it for whom the number asked is not an emotional sum, then that is what it is worth. Which - frankly - is a shame.

Barnezy

Original Poster:

348 posts

114 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
g7jhp said:
I certainly agree aircooled Porsche prices are at a peak, but can't put an XJ220 as a sensible alternative.

A Porsche 964 turbo (3.3) S is very rare, has a low ownership cost, is far more usable and Porsche has a larger global fan base.

Whether it's worth the money isn't my call.

Most of the other cars you mention (Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo) are interesting cars but aren't as well built, usable and their brand aren't as desirable as Porsche.
I think the XJ220 is a fair comparison. It's a car from the same year and is as rare as the Turbo S. I doubt very many people buying a £425k car are considering the running costs and daily usability, as I suspect it will end up in a humidity controlled tent, appreciating in price... but it would be great if it were used.

Yes Porsche has a large fan base, mostly because their cars are so accessible. You can own a Porsche from £1k nowadays and a 911 from £10k, plus they now sell over 160k cars a year. Compare that to Aston Martin who sold just over 4000 cars in 2013 and you understand why Porsche has such a large user community and following. But I would hardly say from a mutual point of view, that Porsche is a more desirable brand then a Lambo or a Jag XJ220, but people do like to belong and like the things they own.

graemel

7,015 posts

216 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
It looks stunning. But it is an awfull lot of wedge. I hope it comes with the original Turbo S rear tail.

Wozy68

5,387 posts

169 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
GT Two said:
I stood back and looked at my 964 last weekend after a 130 mile spirited drive through the countryside chasing a 997 GT3 and thought to myself….. What other 20 year old cars would do this with 100k miles on them. Solid build quality and performance to keep a 997 honest.

Thoroughly enjoyable driving also!
Id be having a quiet word with the GT3 owner and asking him why he didn't pop her into 3rd. If his reply was he had and 4th as well, well then I'd be either racing another mate, or your mate buying himself an old TR4 or similar.

An Integrale is 20 plus years old, and would be all over a 964 on the twisties then and now and especially on unknown roads, and they were just as good if not better engine wise. In fact the 964 wouldn't have lasted as long engine wise.

Sorry to burst a rose tinted bubble, but I've owned both, and a 964 is still the car it was 20 years ago....... and that's def not either capable of keeping with a GT3 on quiet roads or back in the day even a partially good (let alone great) fast B road car that could match the likes of Lancia etc etc.


Edited by Wozy68 on Sunday 23 November 22:55

bigunit00

890 posts

146 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
Wozy68 said:
Id be having a quiet word with the GT3 owner and asking him why he didn't pop her into 3rd. If his reply was he had and 4th as well, well then I'd be either racing another mate, or your mate buying himself an old TR4 or similar.

An Integrale is 20 plus years old, and would be all over a 964 on the twisties then and now and especially on unknown roads, and they were just as good if not better engine wise. In fact the 964 wouldn't have lasted as long engine wise.

Sorry to burst a rose tinted bubble, but I've owned both, and a 964 is still the car it was 20 years ago....... and that's def not either capable of keeping with a GT3 on quiet roads or back in the day even a partially good (let alone great) fast B road car that could match the likes of Lancia etc etc.


Edited by Wozy68 on Sunday 23 November 22:55
I think you will find its a modified turbo that he is referring too not a bog stock NA car.