TOWED CARS BY CLAMPERS QUESTION

TOWED CARS BY CLAMPERS QUESTION

Author
Discussion

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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Situation :Opinions please:

Small courtyard style industrial units with parking in centre. 12 units, 75% let to motor trade related companies...ie mechanics, painters valeters etc.

The parking in the middle has always been used by the units for parking for themselves and for customers cars, nature of the business many of the cars will be untaxed in various states of repair etc.

Landlord sends out letter to tenants saying parking is for visitors only meaning units have no parking for cars awaiting work etc etc. There is no mention of this in their leases.

Landlord asked private firm that also do DVLA clamping/removal to visit the car park which they do and they take several cars including customers (and trade customers) cars there for restoration work that are not taxed.

Main question is has the landlord acted illegally, and have the clamping company done the same?

singlecoil

33,313 posts

245 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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I think a lot would depend on whether or not the leases allowed the tenants the use of those places.

surveyor

17,768 posts

183 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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It is entirely down to what is in the lease.....

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all


No mention of parking in leases....units have always used the spaces, indeed Im not sure industrial units would be allowed to operate without parking.

JQ

5,691 posts

178 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
POORCARDEALER said:
No mention of parking in leases....units have always used the spaces, indeed Im not sure industrial units would be allowed to operate without parking.
If there's no parking or land allocated within the lease then you don't have any. Industrial units can have no parking, it's not a requirement.

Something is going on, as it's an odd landlord who wants to ps off all his tenants.

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
JQ said:
POORCARDEALER said:
No mention of parking in leases....units have always used the spaces, indeed Im not sure industrial units would be allowed to operate without parking.
If there's no parking or land allocated within the lease then you don't have any. Industrial units can have no parking, it's not a requirement.

Something is going on, as it's an odd landlord who wants to ps off all his tenants.
I think he is wanting motor related businesses out, could be planning redevelopment, im not sure....

surveyor

17,768 posts

183 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
If it's not mentioned in the lease as a parking area, and presumably not demised to anyone occupier they have no rights to use it. I'd like to think it was mentioned somewhere if only to provide access to the units as a common area.

There's a weak argument that units need some parking to operate and to remove this is derogation of grant. It's a highly technical argument, and will involve strong (specialist and expensive) solicitors to stand any chance. I would not bet on it being effective.

Has anyone asked the LL what his problem is and whether they can rent some of this space?

JulianHJ

8,733 posts

261 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
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Can't DVLA only tow from public highways? Hasn't private clamping and removal been banned?

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
surveyor said:
If it's not mentioned in the lease as a parking area, and presumably not demised to anyone occupier they have no rights to use it. I'd like to think it was mentioned somewhere if only to provide access to the units as a common area.

There's a weak argument that units need some parking to operate and to remove this is derogation of grant. It's a highly technical argument, and will involve strong (specialist and expensive) solicitors to stand any chance. I would not bet on it being effective.

Has anyone asked the LL what his problem is and whether they can rent some of this space?
Problem is he "says" that its making the industrial estate look scruffy having cars in various states of repair outside, however these are units that are the pits and having leaking roofs etc.

I think it reasonable to expect units to have at least staff parking, and it would be reasonable to expect customers cars to be parked outside, as the units are small, but I take your point regarding the legalities of it

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
JulianHJ said:
Can't DVLA only tow from public highways? Hasn't private clamping and removal been banned?
The car park is accessible by the public as you can drive into it, although it Is private land

JulianHJ

8,733 posts

261 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
One for Pepipoo perhaps? If the DVLA had the right to pull cars from that yard, how is that any different to them pulling them out of any garage's forecourt, or a private housing estate car park?

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
JulianHJ said:
One for Pepipoo perhaps? If the DVLA had the right to pull cars from that yard, how is that any different to them pulling them out of any garage's forecourt, or a private housing estate car park?
I have "lost" a car to them, which they have refused to return to me.....I have successfully sued clampers twice before under similar circumstances, and have already issued MCOL against this lot....as usual they seem to making up the rules, which are not law to suit themselves...I will let the judge decide who is right.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
JulianHJ said:
Can't DVLA only tow from public highways?
Wrong. Been done to death numerous times on here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/9/schedul... .
If the vehicle has no tax and no SORN then it can still be immobilised and removed from anywhere that is not:
(a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or
(b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.
However in the the OP's case one has to look a bit further - see below.

JulianHJ said:
Hasn't private clamping and removal been banned?
It's all to do with lawful authority. Read this: in particular subsections (3) and (4) - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/section...

POORCARDEALER said:
JulianHJ said:
One for Pepipoo perhaps? If the DVLA had the right to pull cars from that yard, how is that any different to them pulling them out of any garage's forecourt, or a private housing estate car park?
I have "lost" a car to them, which they have refused to return to me.....I have successfully sued clampers twice before under similar circumstances, and have already issued MCOL against this lot....as usual they seem to making up the rules, which are not law to suit themselves...I will let the judge decide who is right.
Nothing new under the sun - http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Traders-left-b...

I'm guessing you are relying on Section 2(3)(2C)- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/9/schedul...

The dwelling place bit above is in the amendment to Schedule 2A of VERA 1994.
That Schedule applies specifically to Section 29(1) offences.
So it come down to whether the place from which the vehicle was taken is business premises.
If so, the exception in Section 2(3)(2C) applies and the DVLA contractor hasn't a leg to stand on.
Not that that will bother them one iota. As always the devil will be in the detail.

It would seem that your landlord has an axe to grind.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
POORCARDEALER said:
JulianHJ said:
Can't DVLA only tow from public highways? Hasn't private clamping and removal been banned?
The car park is accessible by the public as you can drive into it, although it Is private land
Then there shouldn't be any SORNed/uninsured cars there, legally.

POORCARDEALER

Original Poster:

8,523 posts

240 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
POORCARDEALER said:
JulianHJ said:
Can't DVLA only tow from public highways? Hasn't private clamping and removal been banned?
The car park is accessible by the public as you can drive into it, although it Is private land
Then there shouldn't be any SORNed/uninsured cars there, legally.
Cars "in the trade" are not required to be SORN'd.

singlecoil

33,313 posts

245 months

Monday 24th November 2014
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What's with the thread title in upper case?

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
POORCARDEALER said:
Cars "in the trade" are not required to be SORN'd.
They aren't allowed to be parked-around without trade plates on, either.

robdcfc

520 posts

157 months

Monday 24th November 2014
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TooMany2cvs said:
They aren't allowed to be parked-around without trade plates on, either.
Cant park up with TP in a car, they are only valid for driving from point a to point b.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
robdcfc said:
Cant park up with TP in a car, they are only valid for driving from point a to point b.
'zackly.

speedking31

3,543 posts

135 months

Monday 24th November 2014
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POORCARDEALER said:
Landlord asked private firm that also do DVLA clamping/removal to visit the car park which they do and they take several cars ...
Have the cars been taken on behalf of the DVLA? confused If on behalf of the landlord, then that's no different to him turning up and towing a vehicle away. I can't see how that's legal. If you're in breach of a tenancy agreement then there is a process, he can't just do what he likes because its his land.