And in a little more news for you...

[Prof Prolapse]

Hooli said:

After they've driven us back to the stone age will they kill doubters with sharpened celery?

Torn limb from limb by Nissan Leafs (leaves?)

Well.. Stretched slightly until they run out of charge.

[Nigel Worc's]

black-k1 said:

Nigel Worc's said:

MAG ???????

Apart from making motorcyclists look stupid by whinging, have they ever actually achieved anything ?

I remember them campaigning against compulsory wearing of crash helmets, that obviously went well, anything else ?

They stopped tolls for bikes on the Dartford crossing (and, I think some other crossings).

They were a big part of the opposition to compulsory leg protectors.

They were/are heavily involved in getting bike access to bus lanes.

They were a big part of the opposition to a mandatory 100bhp limit.

.... so, nothing important then!

Neither motorcycles or taxis can use bus lanes here, compulsory leg protectors are I guess boots, most of us wear those anyway, I wouldn't have an issue with a 100bhp limit on motorcycles, and strangely enough, most of us don't live anywhere near poxy London, so couldn't give a monkeys toss about the Dartford crossing, and I for one don't see why motorcycles should be exempt a charge anyway.

So MAG aren't for me I guess !

[black-k1]

Nigel Worc's said:

black-k1 said:

Nigel Worc's said:

MAG ???????

Apart from making motorcyclists look stupid by whinging, have they ever actually achieved anything ?

I remember them campaigning against compulsory wearing of crash helmets, that obviously went well, anything else ?

They stopped tolls for bikes on the Dartford crossing (and, I think some other crossings).

They were a big part of the opposition to compulsory leg protectors.

They were/are heavily involved in getting bike access to bus lanes.

They were a big part of the opposition to a mandatory 100bhp limit.

.... so, nothing important then!

Neither motorcycles or taxis can use bus lanes here, compulsory leg protectors are I guess boots, most of us wear those anyway, I wouldn't have an issue with a 100bhp limit on motorcycles, and strangely enough, most of us don't live anywhere near poxy London, so couldn't give a monkeys toss about the Dartford crossing, and I for one don't see why motorcycles should be exempt a charge anyway.

So MAG aren't for me I guess !

Leg protectors most definitely are not boots. It's a collection of scaffold poles bolted to the bike to make it wider than luggage system of a GS.

MAG will be working on your local bus lanes and, with their help, you may just be able to use them at some point in the future.

I'm pretty sure Dartford isn't the only toll bridge/tunnel/crossing in the country where MAG have pointed out that's it's cheaper and more efficient to not have bikes paying. I expect you've used one at some point in your life.

You may be happy to support an arbitrary bhp limit brought in to "improve safety" when all the actual evidence shows it has nothing to do with safety, but most of us aren't. When the bhp limit doesn't change the accident rates, what's next? Banning bike completely would dramatically reduce motorcycle accident rates!!!

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps MAG isn't for you!

[Nigel Worc's]

black-k1 said:

Leg protectors most definitely are not boots. It's a collection of scaffold poles bolted to the bike to make it wider than luggage system of a GS.

MAG will be working on your local bus lanes and, with their help, you may just be able to use them at some point in the future.

I'm pretty sure Dartford isn't the only toll bridge/tunnel/crossing in the country where MAG have pointed out that's it's cheaper and more efficient to not have bikes paying. I expect you've used one at some point in your life.

You may be happy to support an arbitrary bhp limit brought in to "improve safety" when all the actual evidence shows it has nothing to do with safety, but most of us aren't. When the bhp limit doesn't change the accident rates, what's next? Banning bike completely would dramatically reduce motorcycle accident rates!!!

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps MAG isn't for you!

I was instrumental in getting taxis removed from bus lanes here, as far as I know, nobody has even suggested motorcycles should use them.

They are bus lanes, if they must exist at all, they should be for buses, not anything except cars.

[black-k1]

Nigel Worc's said:

black-k1 said:

Leg protectors most definitely are not boots. It's a collection of scaffold poles bolted to the bike to make it wider than luggage system of a GS.

MAG will be working on your local bus lanes and, with their help, you may just be able to use them at some point in the future.

I'm pretty sure Dartford isn't the only toll bridge/tunnel/crossing in the country where MAG have pointed out that's it's cheaper and more efficient to not have bikes paying. I expect you've used one at some point in your life.

You may be happy to support an arbitrary bhp limit brought in to "improve safety" when all the actual evidence shows it has nothing to do with safety, but most of us aren't. When the bhp limit doesn't change the accident rates, what's next? Banning bike completely would dramatically reduce motorcycle accident rates!!!

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps MAG isn't for you!

I was instrumental in getting taxis removed from bus lanes here, as far as I know, nobody has even suggested motorcycles should use them.

They are bus lanes, if they must exist at all, they should be for buses, not anything except cars.

This is despite the fact that there is clear evidence that allowing motorcycles to use bus lanes reduces accident rates for motorcyclists without increasing accident rates for any other road groups?

[Hooli]

black-k1 said:

Hooli said:

bass gt3 said:

SteelerSE said:

The latest EU plan is ABS for all new bikes - http://www.mag-uk.org/en/campaignsdetail/a7180

But is this an especially bad thing??
Whilst I have issues with the whole type approval ideology, mandating ABS is a no brainer, No?

It was a bad idea when they mandated ABS on all driving school cars/lorries & buses. It's now impossible to teach an emergency stop. I see bikes going the same way & people falling off for no reason when they need to stop due to stupid laws preventing instructors being able to teach them one of the most important & basic skills.

Are you seriously suggesting that trainee bike riders need to learn emergency stops with a locked front wheel?

Mandatory ABS on training bikes will be a good thing as it will teach riders where the grip limit is, safe in the knowledge that going past that limit while learning will not end up as an accident as it does in the majority of front wheel lock ups.

No. I'm saying that exactly like in cars etc, if you can't skid by accident & learn how to recover it with someone telling you the right thing to do then you'll be a lot less likely to ever learn how to do it.

Remember all the stories of people passing their test in an ABS car, going out, skidding & hitting things as they had no idea how to cure lockup once it occured? I see the same happening with bikes expect people falling off for no good reason before they hit stuff.

Prof Prolapse said:

Hooli said:

After they've driven us back to the stone age will they kill doubters with sharpened celery?

Torn limb from limb by Nissan Leafs (leaves?)

Well.. Stretched slightly until they run out of charge.

Nigel Worc's said:

I was instrumental in getting taxis removed from bus lanes here

Good work. Now they just need banning from the rest of the road network.

[black-k1]

Hooli said:

black-k1 said:

Hooli said:

bass gt3 said:

SteelerSE said:

The latest EU plan is ABS for all new bikes - http://www.mag-uk.org/en/campaignsdetail/a7180

But is this an especially bad thing??
Whilst I have issues with the whole type approval ideology, mandating ABS is a no brainer, No?

It was a bad idea when they mandated ABS on all driving school cars/lorries & buses. It's now impossible to teach an emergency stop. I see bikes going the same way & people falling off for no reason when they need to stop due to stupid laws preventing instructors being able to teach them one of the most important & basic skills.

Are you seriously suggesting that trainee bike riders need to learn emergency stops with a locked front wheel?

Mandatory ABS on training bikes will be a good thing as it will teach riders where the grip limit is, safe in the knowledge that going past that limit while learning will not end up as an accident as it does in the majority of front wheel lock ups.

No. I'm saying that exactly like in cars etc, if you can't skid by accident & learn how to recover it with someone telling you the right thing to do then you'll be a lot less likely to ever learn how to do it.

Remember all the stories of people passing their test in an ABS car, going out, skidding & hitting things as they had no idea how to cure lockup once it occured? I see the same happening with bikes expect people falling off for no good reason before they hit stuff.

There's a very big difference between a skid in a car and a front wheel skid on a bike. Let's face it, very few, even experienced motorcyclists, stay "sunny side up" with a front wheel skid. As for rear wheel skids (for those who can be arsed to use their rear brake), it really doesn't take long to understand how to handle them and the learning process is relatively low risk.

[Hooli]

black-k1 said:

There's a very big difference between a skid in a car and a front wheel skid on a bike. Let's face it, very few, even experienced motorcyclists, stay "sunny side up" with a front wheel skid. As for rear wheel skids (for those who can be arsed to use their rear brake), it really doesn't take long to understand how to handle them and the learning process is relatively low risk.

I've managed locking the front a few times with falling off & I'm hardly outstanding on a bike. As long as you know not to freeze & release the brake again it's not a major thing. If you get into the mindset of grab, squeeze & hold when learning then it's going to be harder to learn to recover a skid if you buy a bike without ABS.

[bass gt3]

Hooli said:

black-k1 said:

There's a very big difference between a skid in a car and a front wheel skid on a bike. Let's face it, very few, even experienced motorcyclists, stay "sunny side up" with a front wheel skid. As for rear wheel skids (for those who can be arsed to use their rear brake), it really doesn't take long to understand how to handle them and the learning process is relatively low risk.

I've managed locking the front a few times with falling off & I'm hardly outstanding on a bike. As long as you know not to freeze & release the brake again it's not a major thing. If you get into the mindset of grab, squeeze & hold when learning then it's going to be harder to learn to recover a skid if you buy a bike without ABS.

In truth, rear wheel lock ups in a panic situation are far more likely to end up badly. What happens is the rear wheel locks and due to the lack of weight on it, the rear wheel starts to swing away from the bike. This oscilation usually ends up in a monumental high side within 4 left, right, left, ooooofff! Seen it many time on track when new riders panic brake into a corner and just stand on everything. If the front locks, with speed it will actually slide before you go down so you have more time to react and avert the crisis.
However, in a panic situation, even the best can forget it all and just throw out the anchors and stand on everything. For this, if ABS is mandated on every bike I won't have an issue because regardless how good I think I am, there's times when I'm not. Every little helps.

[Hooli]

bass gt3 said:

However, in a panic situation, even the best can forget it all and just throw out the anchors and stand on everything. For this, if ABS is mandated on every bike I won't have an issue because regardless how good I think I am, there's times when I'm not. Every little helps.

I agree with that.

My point is considering how many non-ABS bikes will be on the road for years, forcing people to learn on ABS (as I'm sure will happen at some point) will stop them learning to use a non-ABS bike a bit more safely.

[Nigel Worc's]

black-k1 said:

This is despite the fact that there is clear evidence that allowing motorcycles to use bus lanes reduces accident rates for motorcyclists without increasing accident rates for any other road groups?

Oh I am sorry, I wasn't aware bus lanes were being introduced to supposedly make things safer for motorcyclists, I was under the impression it was to make bus travel faster, therefore making that mode of transport more attractive to some people.

I wonder why they're called bus lanes then ?

[black-k1]

Nigel Worc's said:

I wonder why they're called bus lanes then ?

Because "Lanes for congestion beating traffic" wouldn't fit on the signs!

[Nigel Worc's]

black-k1 said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I wonder why they're called bus lanes then ?

Because "Lanes for congestion beating traffic" wouldn't fit on the signs!

and taxis and motorcycles fall into congestion beating traffic because ?

[gareth_r]

Nigel Worc's said:

black-k1 said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I wonder why they're called bus lanes then ?

Because "Lanes for congestion beating traffic" wouldn't fit on the signs!

and taxis and motorcycles fall into congestion beating traffic because?

You'll have to do your on research on taxis, but I can help you out with motorcycles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/927...