Ambulance and a red light
Discussion
So this morning I found myself in a slightly difficult position. I'm at a set of lights, with a car next to me and a lane that filters for left-only. Bearing in mind that I'm already parked at the lights, an ambulance comes from behind me and wants to go through the junction that I, and the other car are at, blocking it's progress.
The Ambulance driver gets right behind me with sirens and lights flashing, he then proceeds to hold down his horn for me to move, at this point, I decide not to, due to the simple fact that I cannot go through a red light, I can't go back, as there's an Ambulance there, I can't go right, as there is a car there, and I can't move over to the left to either join the left filter lane or mount the curb as there is an island in the middle with a high curb that my car cannot mount.
I felt guilty that I was inconveniencing an Ambulance and obviously in all other situations, I would move over (there's a hospital near where I live so moving over is a regular thing round here), however, am I in the wrong for not moving forward? What is the legal standpoint for this situation, as I have heard stories before of other motorists receiving fines for going through a red light, hence my reluctance to go forward.
The Ambulance driver gets right behind me with sirens and lights flashing, he then proceeds to hold down his horn for me to move, at this point, I decide not to, due to the simple fact that I cannot go through a red light, I can't go back, as there's an Ambulance there, I can't go right, as there is a car there, and I can't move over to the left to either join the left filter lane or mount the curb as there is an island in the middle with a high curb that my car cannot mount.
I felt guilty that I was inconveniencing an Ambulance and obviously in all other situations, I would move over (there's a hospital near where I live so moving over is a regular thing round here), however, am I in the wrong for not moving forward? What is the legal standpoint for this situation, as I have heard stories before of other motorists receiving fines for going through a red light, hence my reluctance to go forward.
You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?
Not many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
Not many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
You move forward at the lights slowly observing oncoming traffic and pull over out of the way but also make the driver to the right of you aware that this is happening.
I am always amazed how people dont look out and prepare for emergency vehicles when they are approaching from behind. the blue lights are the early warning the siren the secondary warning
I am always amazed how people dont look out and prepare for emergency vehicles when they are approaching from behind. the blue lights are the early warning the siren the secondary warning
hondansx said:
You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?
Not many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
And still get the ticket. You did the right thing OP - running a red light can easily cause another accident. The ambulance was wrong for attempting to get you to ignore the signal. Not many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
Monday night was in a very similar situation although it was a "sentinel" police car. I saw him coming up behind me and just moved forward through the red light enough to let him get through, due to the nature of the junction I could go forward giving him enough room to get through and not block the junction. I think you would be very unlucky to get in trouble for it. The only time I would think differently is if there is a traffic light camera, I'd probably mount the kerb.
Ambulance should not have sounded the horn. They should not try to make you run a red. That has to be your choice, but to be clear you don't have the law on your side.
Personally if there were no camera's I'd drive though it (slowly with my hazards on).
EDIT - why doesn't some bright spark invent a device for emergency services to change the lights on demand. Some sort of clever ANPR, that reads the plate, sees the blues and then changes them as they approach?
Personally if there were no camera's I'd drive though it (slowly with my hazards on).
EDIT - why doesn't some bright spark invent a device for emergency services to change the lights on demand. Some sort of clever ANPR, that reads the plate, sees the blues and then changes them as they approach?
KTF said:
You are right in that you are not meant to go through the red light as the ambulance driver is trained to find an alternative way round - go on the other side of the road, etc. - if needed.
In reality, most people will go through the light in make room.
exactly this, they are trained to find ways through the traffic, but most people if safe would go forward through lights.In reality, most people will go through the light in make room.
Matthen said:
You did the right thing OP - running a red light can easily cause another accident.
No need to be so melodramatic. Working out whether it's safe to cross a red light is not difficult - no more so than to deciding whether and when to proceed through a faulty traffic light, which is something every driver can expect to occasionally encounter. The difference is just the legality of it, which means your other comment is spot on...Matthen said:
The ambulance was wrong for attempting to get you to ignore the signal.
If that pressure pushes the driver into thinking "I must try and get through this light to help the ambulance" instead of "I know it's illegal but if it's safe I'm going to go through the light to help the ambulance", that's what might lead to another accident.Agree that the ambulance driver shouldn't have sat there on the horn. I'm pretty sure this would cause some drivers to panic and possibly end up, as was said above, causing an accident.
Some time ago I was sat at a traffic light controlled cross roads where a (traffic) police car with lights and sirens was trying to get through traffic stopped at a red light. The cars at the front wouldn't cross the white line so the police car turned off the lights and sirens so as not cause panic. As soon as the lights turned green the police car lit up again and was on its way.
There was a video released by the authorities about this very subject. They too suggested you shouldn't do anything to cause further risk and that the emergency service driver was trained to turn off their siren when faced with this scenario. This was a while ago, so perhaps things have changed.
Some time ago I was sat at a traffic light controlled cross roads where a (traffic) police car with lights and sirens was trying to get through traffic stopped at a red light. The cars at the front wouldn't cross the white line so the police car turned off the lights and sirens so as not cause panic. As soon as the lights turned green the police car lit up again and was on its way.
There was a video released by the authorities about this very subject. They too suggested you shouldn't do anything to cause further risk and that the emergency service driver was trained to turn off their siren when faced with this scenario. This was a while ago, so perhaps things have changed.
As a response trained police driver I can say that the emergency driver is trained to find their way through without pressuring anyone else. We have an exemption to use a red light as a give way. The normal driver does not. Also, if it goes wrong and we crash, our exemption is removed and the crash is automatically deemed to be our fault. So, if we can't get through we should turn off the sirens so as not to pressurise as the consequences could be quite severe.
Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
As a response trained police driver I can say that the emergency driver is trained to find their way through without pressuring anyone else. We have an exemption to use a red light as a give way. The normal driver does not. Also, if it goes wrong and we crash, our exemption is removed and the crash is automatically deemed to be our fault. So, if we can't get through we should turn off the sirens so as not to pressurise as the consequences could be quite severe.
Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
I was always under the assumption that you should only cross a red light if an on duty Policeman instructs you to do so, any other situation; Ambulance, Fire Engine, Coast Guard etc then they cannot and should not attempt to force you to go through.
As for someone mentioning that if you were to receive a ticket for running a red light then it would most likely be cancelled due to the circumstances, there are instances that have been mentioned on Pistonheads and I have read about it on other websites where that has not been the case, even when going to court to argue the toss.
As for someone mentioning that if you were to receive a ticket for running a red light then it would most likely be cancelled due to the circumstances, there are instances that have been mentioned on Pistonheads and I have read about it on other websites where that has not been the case, even when going to court to argue the toss.
I had this situation in Woking a few years ago. I was in lane 2 at the head of the queue as the ambulance came up behind me. Crossing traffic had stopped at the sight of the ambulance so I pulled forward and to the right and stopped in clear view of the camera.
I sent an email to the traffic enforcement folks explaining what happened and within 6 hours they got back to me saying they'd reviewed the images and there would be no penalty coming my way.
I sent an email to the traffic enforcement folks explaining what happened and within 6 hours they got back to me saying they'd reviewed the images and there would be no penalty coming my way.
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