Return of deposit for custom goods...
Discussion
Firstly, let me state that this is not my problem specifically. This has come up a number of times on another forum I frequent and I'm interested to know what the PH leagle beagles thing / what the actual position in law is.
Lets say someone orders a custom instrument from a one man luthiery operation. They agree to pay a deposit up front, approx 40-50% of the total cost. In this specific case, approx £600. This is to allow the builder to source materials and parts etc. The build assures the buyer that the instrument will be complete in 8-10 weeks.
The buyer contacts the luthier after some 3 months or so to find out what's going on as they've heard nothing. The build has not even been started yet but they are assured that he will be starting it shortly and it should be "a few weeks".
Months go by and the buyer is kept in the dark as to progress but does try to get into contact repeatedly via email (I know!). A year passes and the buyer has had enough. He mails the luthier again and it's clear that very little, if any progress has been made but he does send a reply saying "good luck finding your perfect instrument" and is keeping the deposit.
My question is as to whether the luthier has any right to keep the deposit whatsoever. It's complicated slightly by the luthier being in England and the buyer in France but common sense would say that even if there was a contract formed by the buyer handing over a deposit, the fact that the luthier has exceed his time scale for completion massively surely means that he has broken his side of the contract and therefore has no right to keep the deposit.
Is this correct?
Could the buyer go through small claims court or anything similar to recover the deposit or does the fact that he's in France mean this is not an option?
Lets say someone orders a custom instrument from a one man luthiery operation. They agree to pay a deposit up front, approx 40-50% of the total cost. In this specific case, approx £600. This is to allow the builder to source materials and parts etc. The build assures the buyer that the instrument will be complete in 8-10 weeks.
The buyer contacts the luthier after some 3 months or so to find out what's going on as they've heard nothing. The build has not even been started yet but they are assured that he will be starting it shortly and it should be "a few weeks".
Months go by and the buyer is kept in the dark as to progress but does try to get into contact repeatedly via email (I know!). A year passes and the buyer has had enough. He mails the luthier again and it's clear that very little, if any progress has been made but he does send a reply saying "good luck finding your perfect instrument" and is keeping the deposit.
My question is as to whether the luthier has any right to keep the deposit whatsoever. It's complicated slightly by the luthier being in England and the buyer in France but common sense would say that even if there was a contract formed by the buyer handing over a deposit, the fact that the luthier has exceed his time scale for completion massively surely means that he has broken his side of the contract and therefore has no right to keep the deposit.
Is this correct?
Could the buyer go through small claims court or anything similar to recover the deposit or does the fact that he's in France mean this is not an option?
As always... what were the Ts and Cs on the contract? At this point, we find that luthiers don't have anything that even looks like a contract. Vague emails and half-remembered telephone conversations are the norm. And the would-be buyer was far too excited about specifying the features of his dream guitar to have included his own Ts and Cs in the communications that accompanied the deposit.
Luthiers never do any work on time. It's just how they are.
Of course, if the materials are bought already, and that was what the deposit covered, then the luthier could (and should) send the materials to the buyer and he can arrange completion via an alternative luthier.
UK luthiery is a small world... social media pressure may help?
(Don't know on Small Claims from a French consumer.)
Luthiers never do any work on time. It's just how they are.
Of course, if the materials are bought already, and that was what the deposit covered, then the luthier could (and should) send the materials to the buyer and he can arrange completion via an alternative luthier.
UK luthiery is a small world... social media pressure may help?
(Don't know on Small Claims from a French consumer.)
EskimoArapaho said:
As always... what were the Ts and Cs on the contract? At this point, we find that luthiers don't have anything that even looks like a contract. Vague emails and half-remembered telephone conversations are the norm. And the would-be buyer was far too excited about specifying the features of his dream guitar to have included his own Ts and Cs in the communications that accompanied the deposit.
Luthiers never do any work on time. It's just how they are.
Your last sentence is a given HOWEVER there's a point where not doing work on time turns into taking the proverbial and I believe exceeding a deadline by a factor of 5 qualifies. More worryingly for the buyer is the lack of updates and/or any progress whatsoever and also the fact that the guy is STILL taking on more work / deposits in the meantime.Luthiers never do any work on time. It's just how they are.
In my option, people are more willing to wait for work to be done as long as they get SOME kind of update every now and then and can actually see progress being made. When after a year it's clear that he's not even started yet and has still been taking on extra work then...
In this case, the fact that the luthier has now effectively stopped work on this build (not that it started!) and is assuming they can keep the deposit cannot be right can it?
I'm guessing it's too late to reverse the deposit transaction if it was paid by Paypal / CC / debit card right?
All of this crap is exactly why I build my own instruments - I am not patient enough to put up with this stuff!
I agree with all of that, so please stop using my response as if I were excusing for the luthier's behaviour. But whining doesn't actually get your friend anywhere.
What might:
1) A claim at the credit card company would work - BUT ONLY IF France has the equivalent of the UK's consumer credit protection (even after a long delay).
2) A small claims court process would also probably work in his favour, BUT ONLY IF it applies to French consumers.
Social media pressure - assuming the luthier uses it for business - would be hard for the luthier to ignore. Guitar forums would welcome the chance to hear fair comment about luthiery issues.
What might:
1) A claim at the credit card company would work - BUT ONLY IF France has the equivalent of the UK's consumer credit protection (even after a long delay).
2) A small claims court process would also probably work in his favour, BUT ONLY IF it applies to French consumers.
Social media pressure - assuming the luthier uses it for business - would be hard for the luthier to ignore. Guitar forums would welcome the chance to hear fair comment about luthiery issues.
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