Chimaera won't start
Discussion
Hello all,
My Chimp left me down last night when I was trying to go home from work.
Fuel pump works, engine cranks, fuel rail pressurises, but no spark at all.
Ignition relay works, but it seems the supply to the coil is only 9,9 Volts, while battery voltage is ok.
Don't have anything to remove a spark plug over here, so can't test if there's really no visible spark, but when cranking it, I can't hear any sign of a spark.
Tonight I will replace the coil anyway (it's 15y old), but I don't think the problem will be solved.
Any ideas?
Could this be alarm/immobiliser related?
My Chimp left me down last night when I was trying to go home from work.
Fuel pump works, engine cranks, fuel rail pressurises, but no spark at all.
Ignition relay works, but it seems the supply to the coil is only 9,9 Volts, while battery voltage is ok.
Don't have anything to remove a spark plug over here, so can't test if there's really no visible spark, but when cranking it, I can't hear any sign of a spark.
Tonight I will replace the coil anyway (it's 15y old), but I don't think the problem will be solved.
Any ideas?
Could this be alarm/immobiliser related?
Could well be the immobiliser. I left mine in a secure lock up for a week with the doors unlocked, alarm off but immobiliser on. Went to start it a week later after pressing the blipper, the pump ran, the engine cranked but no spark. Tried three times!
Got out locked the door, put on the alarm and waited for it all to set up. Then unlocked it jumped in and hey presto it started! (but it was flooded due to the earlier start attempts so needed the pedal to the floor treatment)
Got out locked the door, put on the alarm and waited for it all to set up. Then unlocked it jumped in and hey presto it started! (but it was flooded due to the earlier start attempts so needed the pedal to the floor treatment)
Mine wouldn't start today. My commiserations if it is cranking over but won't start, it is very frustrating. Mine was dead completely.
I switched the 2 silver relays in the footwell (this worked to get my friend's 500 going. Just disturbing them can 'encourage' them). This may be worth a try?
I thought being a W reg it didn't have the 'hot start' issue but this was the 2nd time it happened, the last time in June. It always starts from stone cold. Anyway, having no tools with me in an underground supermarket car park, I called out the breakdown. Only a tap on the motor with a long bar and it started so at least I got home OK, and I know what it is for definite now.
I considered taking it off and cleaning it but a new one is only just over £60. (Look for Land Rover ones to avoid the TVR 'tax.') Condensation / rust and old grease have probably taken their toll. Probably the original.
I did a search of the threads and read the praises of a company that sell a 2kw one. But the cross reference part numbers on the listing seemed to be the same as the standard 1.7kw one to me. (Bosch 0986017440, Lucas LRT 00169 or LRS 709, ERR 6087, there's about 50 part numbers!!)
I switched the 2 silver relays in the footwell (this worked to get my friend's 500 going. Just disturbing them can 'encourage' them). This may be worth a try?
I thought being a W reg it didn't have the 'hot start' issue but this was the 2nd time it happened, the last time in June. It always starts from stone cold. Anyway, having no tools with me in an underground supermarket car park, I called out the breakdown. Only a tap on the motor with a long bar and it started so at least I got home OK, and I know what it is for definite now.
I considered taking it off and cleaning it but a new one is only just over £60. (Look for Land Rover ones to avoid the TVR 'tax.') Condensation / rust and old grease have probably taken their toll. Probably the original.
I did a search of the threads and read the praises of a company that sell a 2kw one. But the cross reference part numbers on the listing seemed to be the same as the standard 1.7kw one to me. (Bosch 0986017440, Lucas LRT 00169 or LRS 709, ERR 6087, there's about 50 part numbers!!)
71tuscan said:
I suspect the ignition amplifier as well.
Already replaced the coil but no difference at all...
Will get a new amplifier tomorrow.
While an ignition amp can, if I understand correctly, just die; they usually allow you to start and then the engine dies later, might or might not restart immediately. Most people experience problems with them when hot, but mine was a problem when cold too.Already replaced the coil but no difference at all...
Will get a new amplifier tomorrow.
The thing to watch out for is; I bought mine (original Lucas from a recognised TVR parts supplier who swore it was a real one etc, and I am not doubting that) to replace the original and avoid having problems. After all, 16 years 100k miles etc etc.
Within 20 - 30 miles it was giving me problems (hot or cold) and having put the old one back on; the car is fine again.
Like most electrical parts; you can get a dead one out of the box from new.
So, replaced the coil this weekend with no result at all.
Replaced the ignition amplifier today and engine started first time.
Wanted to check the timing as well, but by the time i had the chance to have a first look at it, the engine died.
Cleaned the stepper motor, engine started again, but died short after.
Every time i restart, it dies sooner.
Have also checked the alarm and immobiliser, which is ok now.
Then checked the ECU plug for dirt or corrosion but no problems there.
I have the impression that the problem occurs as soon as the exhaust manifold gets hot.
If i keep the throttle open at 2-3krpm, it keeps on going, but it stalls as soon as i release the throttle.
Timing is 8 degrees at idle, so should be ok.
FYI it's a 08/1999 450
Have been reading trough the forums for answers, but can't find any clue here. Did read about bad earth connections, but can't find any potentially bad connections. Did a mild resto last spring, and car has done great since then. On replacing the valley gasket at the time, i tidied up the engine loom, and checked all wires and connections for corrosion, cracks, etc.
Any suggestions?
Thx!
Replaced the ignition amplifier today and engine started first time.
Wanted to check the timing as well, but by the time i had the chance to have a first look at it, the engine died.
Cleaned the stepper motor, engine started again, but died short after.
Every time i restart, it dies sooner.
Have also checked the alarm and immobiliser, which is ok now.
Then checked the ECU plug for dirt or corrosion but no problems there.
I have the impression that the problem occurs as soon as the exhaust manifold gets hot.
If i keep the throttle open at 2-3krpm, it keeps on going, but it stalls as soon as i release the throttle.
Timing is 8 degrees at idle, so should be ok.
FYI it's a 08/1999 450
Have been reading trough the forums for answers, but can't find any clue here. Did read about bad earth connections, but can't find any potentially bad connections. Did a mild resto last spring, and car has done great since then. On replacing the valley gasket at the time, i tidied up the engine loom, and checked all wires and connections for corrosion, cracks, etc.
Any suggestions?
Thx!
I had this problem after de-catting, though I think the decatting made the problem surface, rather than being the cause.
In my case we tried everything, then decided it had to be the stepper. So changed the stepper for a used TVR original one, and the warm stalling issue has never happened again.
If you know any other Chimaera or Griff owners near to you, ask if you can meet with them and try their stepper in your car. If it solves the problem you know to buy a new one from a reputable source like TVR Power.
In my case we tried everything, then decided it had to be the stepper. So changed the stepper for a used TVR original one, and the warm stalling issue has never happened again.
If you know any other Chimaera or Griff owners near to you, ask if you can meet with them and try their stepper in your car. If it solves the problem you know to buy a new one from a reputable source like TVR Power.
Hello all,
This is becoming really annoying, and i've run out of ideas…
Meanwhile I've replaced my coil, ignition amplifier, airflow meter, both lambda sensors and the ecu temperature sensor.
Throttle potentiometer, stepper motor, fuel rail temperature gauge give correct readings, but the problem remains.
I also checked the fuel lines (don't come anywhere near the exhaust so no vaporisation), poured 5 extra litres of petrol in the tank, resetted the ECU, checked if the lambda sensors aren't swapped between banks, checked the ignition timing and everything seems very good. Have also tried with the fuel cap off (vacuum?) but no difference.
Car starts first time & runs very well until the exhaust reaches its normal temperature. Then the engine dies. Fuel pump stops 1-2 sec after the engine has died. At that moment coolant hasn't even reached 50°C.
Car can be started again, but dies short after, and the intervals become shorter every time, until it dies after 2 seconds. Think it must be something temperature related, but can't think of anything.
Have also had contact with Marc Minne, but he has no clue either.
Last summer I had to replace my valley gasket, so cleaned all components thoroughly to make the engine bay look like new. Also replaced the radiator, installed an ACT induction kit with super flares, new alternator, new 100amp fuses, new thermostat, shocks, springs, pads, discs, carpet, hood, all door rubbers, etc.etc. Car has driven flawless for 5-6 months.
Fuel economy has been dramatic for a long time (12mpg) but the car kept on going. The airflow meter and lambda sensors were probably the reason, but those have been replaced now, so I suppose that'll be solved now.
Anyone have some more ideas what this might be?
This is becoming really annoying, and i've run out of ideas…
Meanwhile I've replaced my coil, ignition amplifier, airflow meter, both lambda sensors and the ecu temperature sensor.
Throttle potentiometer, stepper motor, fuel rail temperature gauge give correct readings, but the problem remains.
I also checked the fuel lines (don't come anywhere near the exhaust so no vaporisation), poured 5 extra litres of petrol in the tank, resetted the ECU, checked if the lambda sensors aren't swapped between banks, checked the ignition timing and everything seems very good. Have also tried with the fuel cap off (vacuum?) but no difference.
Car starts first time & runs very well until the exhaust reaches its normal temperature. Then the engine dies. Fuel pump stops 1-2 sec after the engine has died. At that moment coolant hasn't even reached 50°C.
Car can be started again, but dies short after, and the intervals become shorter every time, until it dies after 2 seconds. Think it must be something temperature related, but can't think of anything.
Have also had contact with Marc Minne, but he has no clue either.
Last summer I had to replace my valley gasket, so cleaned all components thoroughly to make the engine bay look like new. Also replaced the radiator, installed an ACT induction kit with super flares, new alternator, new 100amp fuses, new thermostat, shocks, springs, pads, discs, carpet, hood, all door rubbers, etc.etc. Car has driven flawless for 5-6 months.
Fuel economy has been dramatic for a long time (12mpg) but the car kept on going. The airflow meter and lambda sensors were probably the reason, but those have been replaced now, so I suppose that'll be solved now.
Anyone have some more ideas what this might be?
It does keep running when i keep the throttle open. It only dies at idle.
I've also been thinking about the fuel pressure regulator, so I'll check the vacuum tube tomorrow.
If there's any trace/scent of petrol in there, I'll know what to do...
Especially as fuel economy has been quite a disaster lately, it might be the issue but I haven't tought of that before...
I've also been thinking about the fuel pressure regulator, so I'll check the vacuum tube tomorrow.
If there's any trace/scent of petrol in there, I'll know what to do...
Especially as fuel economy has been quite a disaster lately, it might be the issue but I haven't tought of that before...
Possibly there are two issues, as you have had fuel economy problems longer than the car not holding an idle when warm.
1. Too much fuel or too little air? Have you checked the air filter (just pop it off), kinked air hose, etc?
2. Not holding an idle. Sorry to go back to it, and mine may have been a one off, but mine did exactly what yours has done. If the stepper motor doesn't react, at all or fast enough, to a falling idle, the car will stall. My car was fine when cold, but as soon as it warmed up it stalled without right foot intervention. I tried everything else first, even a complete remap by Mark Adams, which solved all my lean running problems, but it still stalled when warm. In the end Rob Robertson (V8 developments) worked out that it had to be the stepper getting temperature sensitive, and swapped it for an original but used one. Problem solved. I know you have changed the stepper, but you seem to know what you are doing, so can I suggest you test it is operating correctly when warm? And if not, work out why not - stepper on signal? New steppers don't necessarily work properly, by the way.
1. Too much fuel or too little air? Have you checked the air filter (just pop it off), kinked air hose, etc?
2. Not holding an idle. Sorry to go back to it, and mine may have been a one off, but mine did exactly what yours has done. If the stepper motor doesn't react, at all or fast enough, to a falling idle, the car will stall. My car was fine when cold, but as soon as it warmed up it stalled without right foot intervention. I tried everything else first, even a complete remap by Mark Adams, which solved all my lean running problems, but it still stalled when warm. In the end Rob Robertson (V8 developments) worked out that it had to be the stepper getting temperature sensitive, and swapped it for an original but used one. Problem solved. I know you have changed the stepper, but you seem to know what you are doing, so can I suggest you test it is operating correctly when warm? And if not, work out why not - stepper on signal? New steppers don't necessarily work properly, by the way.
Checked the vacuum pipe on the FPR today. No signs of fuel leaking into the pipe. Switched the ignition on to pressurise the fuel rail. If the membrane of the FPR has gone bust, fuel must drip out of the vacuum connection, but nothing like that. There's a subtle scent of petrol in the pipe, but nothing different than what the plenum smells like when you open it.
All induction pipes are new and aren't restricting or leaking in any way as far as i can see.
I can try to attach a leaf blower onto it to pressurize it with smoke.
Might seem a bit dramatic, but if there's any leaks in the induction pipe, they must be easily traceable that way.
Haven't replaced the stepper motor, have just taken it apart, lubed it and did the test sequence as described on the G33 website.
Is there another way to test it or do I just replace it and hope for the best?
IMHO, the stepper motor should just correct the exact supply of idle air, as the idle bypass pipe should be able to keep the engine running by itself, even without the stepper motor.
If an engine stalls, this is always due to either air, fuel or ignition. If ignition is the problem, the engine stalls very sudden. If air is the problem, it'll lose rpm gradually until it finally stalls, and if fuel is the problem, the engine will stall one cylinder after another until the remaining working cylinders can't maintain rpm. My best guess would be fuel starvation or maybe air supply, but I really don't think there's an ignition problem.
Marc Minne can also lend me a standard Range Rover 3,9 ECU to give that a try. Don't know of anyone in the area who has a spare stepper motor to give that a try as well. A fault code reader would also be a great help, but i might as well solder an extra usb connection onto the fault code reader plug and download RoverGauge.
Thnaks for all your help! More ideas are very welcome!
All induction pipes are new and aren't restricting or leaking in any way as far as i can see.
I can try to attach a leaf blower onto it to pressurize it with smoke.
Might seem a bit dramatic, but if there's any leaks in the induction pipe, they must be easily traceable that way.
Haven't replaced the stepper motor, have just taken it apart, lubed it and did the test sequence as described on the G33 website.
Is there another way to test it or do I just replace it and hope for the best?
IMHO, the stepper motor should just correct the exact supply of idle air, as the idle bypass pipe should be able to keep the engine running by itself, even without the stepper motor.
If an engine stalls, this is always due to either air, fuel or ignition. If ignition is the problem, the engine stalls very sudden. If air is the problem, it'll lose rpm gradually until it finally stalls, and if fuel is the problem, the engine will stall one cylinder after another until the remaining working cylinders can't maintain rpm. My best guess would be fuel starvation or maybe air supply, but I really don't think there's an ignition problem.
Marc Minne can also lend me a standard Range Rover 3,9 ECU to give that a try. Don't know of anyone in the area who has a spare stepper motor to give that a try as well. A fault code reader would also be a great help, but i might as well solder an extra usb connection onto the fault code reader plug and download RoverGauge.
Thnaks for all your help! More ideas are very welcome!
Found this on another thread. It's from Blitzracing, the guy who sells the Rovergauge cable and software on classifieds. He was discussing a high idle, but I guess the same could apply to no idle when hot?
"Its not just the stepper - the throttle pot voltage has to be correct, and no speed reading- either of these are wrong it can hold the idle high. The ECU has a target idle, depending on engine temp and the ECU will switch into idle mode, or drive mode depending on the sensor input. Both ECUmate and RoverGauge will display these values- plus the stepper position- typically this should be about 30% open (60 steps) to show its adding additional air to the base idle setting. If you stepper is dropping to zero, you have an air leak somewhere. You would be far better looking at these readings than trying to bodge it- the system does work if every thing is in balance."
"Its not just the stepper - the throttle pot voltage has to be correct, and no speed reading- either of these are wrong it can hold the idle high. The ECU has a target idle, depending on engine temp and the ECU will switch into idle mode, or drive mode depending on the sensor input. Both ECUmate and RoverGauge will display these values- plus the stepper position- typically this should be about 30% open (60 steps) to show its adding additional air to the base idle setting. If you stepper is dropping to zero, you have an air leak somewhere. You would be far better looking at these readings than trying to bodge it- the system does work if every thing is in balance."
My nightmare continues...
Downloaded rovergauge and a driver for the ftdi cable.
I first wanted to read the fault codes, but that didn't work.
Next switched on the ignition & rovergauge confirmed data transmission.
First thing i noticed was fuel & water temperature displayed -40C
Idle air bypass is 96%, but rovergauge cannot force the stepper motor in either direction.
Then I fired it up, and after a few seconds the temp readings rose but values remain negative. (Car was parked inside, ambient temp is between 12-16 degrees)
Got AFR readings for a little while, when i open the throttle at 2000 rpm.(tach reading)
At 2000rpm, rovergauge displays only 200-300rpm.
AFR reading is lean on one bank and rich on the other, while both lambda sensors have been replaced with new ones.
Apart from faulty rpm, AFR, and temperature readings, I wasn't getting any other data.
Then, rovergauge suddenly displays over 130 mph while car is stationary, and over 22000 rpm while tach displays 2000 rpm.
Shortly after, rovergauge shuts down. Meanwhile the exhaust has warmed up, and if i lift my foot off the loud pedal, the engine idles for 3 seconds and then dies.
Does anyone know if this can point towards a faulty ecu? The AFR readings do make sense as the lambda sensors i took out, had signs of rich mixture on one bank and lean mixture on the other. The spark plugs, had a rich mixture contaminion on both cylinder banks. Engine still runs a bit rough and all other symptoms remain. Can there be a situation in which a faulty ecu still allows the engine to start or wouldn't it do that in the first place?
Downloaded rovergauge and a driver for the ftdi cable.
I first wanted to read the fault codes, but that didn't work.
Next switched on the ignition & rovergauge confirmed data transmission.
First thing i noticed was fuel & water temperature displayed -40C
Idle air bypass is 96%, but rovergauge cannot force the stepper motor in either direction.
Then I fired it up, and after a few seconds the temp readings rose but values remain negative. (Car was parked inside, ambient temp is between 12-16 degrees)
Got AFR readings for a little while, when i open the throttle at 2000 rpm.(tach reading)
At 2000rpm, rovergauge displays only 200-300rpm.
AFR reading is lean on one bank and rich on the other, while both lambda sensors have been replaced with new ones.
Apart from faulty rpm, AFR, and temperature readings, I wasn't getting any other data.
Then, rovergauge suddenly displays over 130 mph while car is stationary, and over 22000 rpm while tach displays 2000 rpm.
Shortly after, rovergauge shuts down. Meanwhile the exhaust has warmed up, and if i lift my foot off the loud pedal, the engine idles for 3 seconds and then dies.
Does anyone know if this can point towards a faulty ecu? The AFR readings do make sense as the lambda sensors i took out, had signs of rich mixture on one bank and lean mixture on the other. The spark plugs, had a rich mixture contaminion on both cylinder banks. Engine still runs a bit rough and all other symptoms remain. Can there be a situation in which a faulty ecu still allows the engine to start or wouldn't it do that in the first place?
My nightmare continues...
Downloaded rovergauge and a driver for the ftdi cable.
I first wanted to read the fault codes, but that didn't work.
Next switched on the ignition & rovergauge confirmed data transmission.
First thing i noticed was fuel & water temperature displayed -40C
Idle air bypass is 96%, but rovergauge cannot force the stepper motor in either direction.
Then I fired it up, and after a few seconds the temp readings rose but values remain negative. (Car was parked inside, ambient temp is between 12-16 degrees)
Got AFR readings for a little while, when i open the throttle at 2000 rpm.(tach reading)
At 2000rpm, rovergauge displays only 200-300rpm.
AFR reading is lean on one bank and rich on the other, while both lambda sensors have been replaced with new ones.
Apart from faulty rpm, AFR, and temperature readings, I wasn't getting any other data.
Then, rovergauge suddenly displays over 130 mph while car is stationary, and over 22000 rpm while tach displays 2000 rpm.
Shortly after, rovergauge shuts down. Meanwhile the exhaust has warmed up, and if i lift my foot off the loud pedal, the engine idles for 3 seconds and then dies.
Does anyone know if this can point towards a faulty ecu? The AFR readings do make sense as the lambda sensors i took out, had signs of rich mixture on one bank and lean mixture on the other. The spark plugs, had a rich mixture contaminion on both cylinder banks. Engine still runs a bit rough and all other symptoms remain. Can there be a situation in which a faulty ecu still allows the engine to start or wouldn't it do that in the first place?
Downloaded rovergauge and a driver for the ftdi cable.
I first wanted to read the fault codes, but that didn't work.
Next switched on the ignition & rovergauge confirmed data transmission.
First thing i noticed was fuel & water temperature displayed -40C
Idle air bypass is 96%, but rovergauge cannot force the stepper motor in either direction.
Then I fired it up, and after a few seconds the temp readings rose but values remain negative. (Car was parked inside, ambient temp is between 12-16 degrees)
Got AFR readings for a little while, when i open the throttle at 2000 rpm.(tach reading)
At 2000rpm, rovergauge displays only 200-300rpm.
AFR reading is lean on one bank and rich on the other, while both lambda sensors have been replaced with new ones.
Apart from faulty rpm, AFR, and temperature readings, I wasn't getting any other data.
Then, rovergauge suddenly displays over 130 mph while car is stationary, and over 22000 rpm while tach displays 2000 rpm.
Shortly after, rovergauge shuts down. Meanwhile the exhaust has warmed up, and if i lift my foot off the loud pedal, the engine idles for 3 seconds and then dies.
Does anyone know if this can point towards a faulty ecu? The AFR readings do make sense as the lambda sensors i took out, had signs of rich mixture on one bank and lean mixture on the other. The spark plugs, had a rich mixture contaminion on both cylinder banks. Engine still runs a bit rough and all other symptoms remain. Can there be a situation in which a faulty ecu still allows the engine to start or wouldn't it do that in the first place?
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