RE: Motorsport on Monday: 08/12/14
Monday 8th December 2014
As an idle teenager, around this time of year most of my evenings after school were spent flicking through channels - inevitably I'd land on Motors TV, where there'd be a V8 Supercars race re-run or season review on. In my formative years, big Aussie tin-tops with fire-spitting V8s formed a significant part of my motorsport education.
Close racing and V8s? Win-win, surely?I've grown up with the likes of Skaife, Ambrose, Murphy and Ingall fuelling the fist fight in the grandstands between Holden and Ford fans; spent hours watching pedal cam vids on YouTube back when they had a proper H-pattern manual to see if I could glean anything to perfect my own heel-and-toe technique.
What does the future hold with Ford leaving?Lost the plot?
Case in point: imagine - just for a minute - if many of those BTCC drivers from the Super Touring era also drove for a GT team in the national championship, and that some bright spark had scheduled for the test day of one to coincide with the legendary endurance race of the other at one of the world's best tracks. Grids for each would take a serious hit.
Test day mix-up has infuriated manufacturersWith sponsors to please, you can see why Nissan Australia CEO Richard Emery has pleaded with the V8 Supercars series to do something about the double booking.
Big grids great, but surely the V8 needs to stay?Bye Bye Blue Oval
It might only be the Holdens that are left, too, as Ford recently announced it will be pulling out of the series after next season. Ford's decision stems from it ceasing production in Australia and therefore discontinuing the Falcon, but the above point is related to this latest development.
Superb series that needs to be saved, says SeanWho am I to tell them otherwise? I'm just your typical Aussie V8 fan - I might be half way across the world but, if I could, I'd be trackside as much as possible. And it'd be the V8s that would attract me, not a turbocharged four or six.
Motorsport on Monday: 08/12/14
Has V8 Supercars lost the plot? Sean mulls over the evidence
Close racing and V8s? Win-win, surely?
V8 Supercars is my kind of race series. If it's not yours, I defy the corners of your lips not to gently, uncontrollably sweep upwards at the sight of this.
It's a blue-collar battle between the two biggest names in the business Down Under. In Europe we don't really have a race series like it - we're jaded by boring single-seater championships so the best way to describe it is to imagine the hysteria, excitement, driving talent, speed, competitiveness and contact that oozed from the Super Touring era in 1990s BTCC racing. With V8s.
It's great. But it might not be for too much longer. The championship is now coming under threat from a few stupid decisions by organisers and a crucial withdrawal beyond its control.
What does the future hold with Ford leaving?
Case in point: imagine - just for a minute - if many of those BTCC drivers from the Super Touring era also drove for a GT team in the national championship, and that some bright spark had scheduled for the test day of one to coincide with the legendary endurance race of the other at one of the world's best tracks. Grids for each would take a serious hit.
That's exactly what's happened. V8SC rule makers decided to plonk the official pre-season test in Sydney on the same weekend as the Bathurst 12-hour. Not only that, but the V8SC test weekend was announced AFTER the Bathurst 12-hour booked its slot and made compulsory.
Then in wade manufacturers like Nissan (that has an interest in both) with driver Rick Kelly. Unlike his colleagues Craig Lowndes and Shane van Gisbergen who have abandoned their Bathurst seats, Nissan has stood strong and says Kelly will race a GT-R at Mount Panorama rather than go testing, potentially harming its V8 Supercar entry for 2015.
Test day mix-up has infuriated manufacturers
V8SC thought it might usurp fans of the Bathurst 12-hour fans, but it's backfired. There's been plenty of backlash - and rightly so.
When is V8 Supercars not V8 Supercars?
Things get worse than that though. Earlier this month, V8 Supercars announced it would open up engine regs from 2017 onwards as part of a wider revamp of the rules.
The broadening of the series' framework will allow four- and six-cylinder turbo engines to compete against the usual 5.0-litre naturally aspirated eights - so will V8 Supercars just be called Supercars from 2017?
While it'd be great to see a BMW M4 (the four-door rule will be lifted, too) battle a Commodore, let's hope not.
Big grids great, but surely the V8 needs to stay?
It might only be the Holdens that are left, too, as Ford recently announced it will be pulling out of the series after next season. Ford's decision stems from it ceasing production in Australia and therefore discontinuing the Falcon, but the above point is related to this latest development.
We've been lucky that two manufacturers have sustained the championship for as long as they did. Now Nissan, Mercedes and Volvo are all looking to nick a few Ford/Holden shrimps from the barbie and take a slice of the V8 Supercars action, the championship has realised manufacturer appeal will potentially bring bigger grids.
Opening up engine regs to include cars like the M3/M4 or even potentially current NGTC BTCC cars, if they could be tweaked enough, could deliver that.
What the championship hasn't realised is that the V8s are core to the sport and need to be protected. It thinks that by allowing anything other than a 5.0-litre V8 in, it'll bring more fans. But while it might work, if it comes at the expense of the fire breathers, it could do the opposite.
Superb series that needs to be saved, says Sean
While it'd be great to see an inter-continental dust-up between marques, if the balance of performance isn't right, we could see new technology for the championship muscle out the muscle, with Holden disappearing along with Ford to save face and money.
It would be diesel LMP1s all over again, with no one brand wanting to throw the budget at the older, conventional and potentially slower technology not favoured by the regs just because it'd please fans.
Fan power
But it's the fans that make the sport - they're ultimately the ones the sponsors are targeting and it's sponsors that pay bills. I'm not keen on the very 'bizznizz' like term stakeholders, but everyone involved would do well to remember them.
We'll see the new V8 Supercars 'Gen 2' rules at the end of next year most likely. Depending on the outcome, maybe PH should start a 'Save the V8' campaign?
[Pics: LAT]
Discussion
While I too remember those great Bathhurst battles of years gone by, I watched a lot of this at the weekend.
The street circuit made it rather dull IMHO, but some of the action was good.
I suspect that the new Mustang with a V8 could well make an apperance??
But would the monster V8s lining up against the tiddle turbo 4s bring back that battle of the giants, like when we had Ford Galaxie up against the Mini and Ford Escort at Crystal Palace Track of many years ago.
Still exisitng to watch even today, when the Beeb put it on.
It might work if the rules let the V8s loose!
Just a thought, as Aussie racing is a life saver in a dull British winter!
The street circuit made it rather dull IMHO, but some of the action was good.
I suspect that the new Mustang with a V8 could well make an apperance??
But would the monster V8s lining up against the tiddle turbo 4s bring back that battle of the giants, like when we had Ford Galaxie up against the Mini and Ford Escort at Crystal Palace Track of many years ago.
Still exisitng to watch even today, when the Beeb put it on.
It might work if the rules let the V8s loose!
Just a thought, as Aussie racing is a life saver in a dull British winter!
I don't have the in-depth knowledge to pass comment on whether the changes are inevitable, but after watching most of the series during 2009 /2010 when I lived in Australia, I formed the opinion that this was the best racing I'd ever seen.
Bathurst is an institution. We watched this year's race literally on the edge of our seats (luckily, I'm a Ford fan...).
V8SC should always be just that. V8SC's. Nothing else. There's a certain magic to it that simply doesn't exist anywhere else and allowing any other form of engine just will not be the same.
Bathurst is an institution. We watched this year's race literally on the edge of our seats (luckily, I'm a Ford fan...).
V8SC should always be just that. V8SC's. Nothing else. There's a certain magic to it that simply doesn't exist anywhere else and allowing any other form of engine just will not be the same.
Growing up before the V8s on screensport and watching the Aussies fight in the Sierra's and skylines was worth the wait. Then when the falcons and commodores were brought back to the primary form of motorsport down there it set a new pattern of big noise and fast cars. Super touring didn't really work down there because of a perceived lack of speed and probably noise. If V8SC's allow different engines in there will be the same b
hing that happened with the Skylines, balance of performance will come into play and people will get bored of it. Them staging the test on the bathurst 12 hours is just jealousy, and is highly unbecoming of a series, I mean Bernie doesn't care either but at least he doesn't overlap his races with anyone else to that extent.
hing that happened with the Skylines, balance of performance will come into play and people will get bored of it. Them staging the test on the bathurst 12 hours is just jealousy, and is highly unbecoming of a series, I mean Bernie doesn't care either but at least he doesn't overlap his races with anyone else to that extent.I love the V8SC series, and love the fact that if there is sod all else on I can flick to Motors TV and get some thundering V8 action on a boring day at home!
It seems to me that the series is going through what most other national/international events have gone through over the last few years. Ford pulling out will hit the series, but if they no longer sell the falcon or a like model with a V8 then they simply couldn't stay in the series. So the organisers have made an adjustment to the rules to accommodate more interest from manufacturers.
Remember this is the series that go the hump that the 4x4 turbo engined repmobiles were creaming all over the V8 Holdens back in the early days and changed the rules to outlaw the turbo 4x4 cars, and it obviously worked for a while.
I think the biggest potential hump could come from a fwd turbo shopping car like a Focus/Fiesta potentially creaming a V8 Holden over a race. I hear no one was very pleased when the Volvo took a race win.
I dont know about the new regs or what changes there are exactly but if they allow more open power rules on turbo motors then there's no reason a turbo 4 couldn't give it to a thundering V8. also by allowing other cars in to the championship could make for better action on track as more teams enter.
I could also be wrong on all of this
It seems to me that the series is going through what most other national/international events have gone through over the last few years. Ford pulling out will hit the series, but if they no longer sell the falcon or a like model with a V8 then they simply couldn't stay in the series. So the organisers have made an adjustment to the rules to accommodate more interest from manufacturers.
Remember this is the series that go the hump that the 4x4 turbo engined repmobiles were creaming all over the V8 Holdens back in the early days and changed the rules to outlaw the turbo 4x4 cars, and it obviously worked for a while.
I think the biggest potential hump could come from a fwd turbo shopping car like a Focus/Fiesta potentially creaming a V8 Holden over a race. I hear no one was very pleased when the Volvo took a race win.
I dont know about the new regs or what changes there are exactly but if they allow more open power rules on turbo motors then there's no reason a turbo 4 couldn't give it to a thundering V8. also by allowing other cars in to the championship could make for better action on track as more teams enter.
I could also be wrong on all of this
Quite liked the Aussie V8's, but their behaviour over the Bathurst 12 Hours is just small time. The series deseves to collapse with that kind of 'bully boy' tactics. It might have passed them by, but GT3 series are far more International than their own series.
If less Manufacturers are building and selling V8's, then they have to bite the bullet, and race what they sell.
If less Manufacturers are building and selling V8's, then they have to bite the bullet, and race what they sell.
As I understand it V8 Supercars may have another problem in that Holden stop manufacturing the V8 Commodore at the end of 2017. Holden say they will choose suitable cars from the GM worldwide ranges to sell in Australia from 2018. This may make an American V8 available, so changing the rules to allow 2 or 3-door cars into the series would allow Holden to use a Corvette, Camaro or other GM mid-size car as a basis. Not sure if GM would make a RHD version of their cars though for the Australian market- they don't for the UK as far as I know.
not sure on the video clip of them drifting was relevant, its the racing that stands out, why is every journalist obsessed with cars going sideways these days?
On the rule changes, its a big shame as the heart will be ripped out of the series, and it'll end up like the btcc, full of pay as you go drivers with barely any manufacturer support in the series.
On the rule changes, its a big shame as the heart will be ripped out of the series, and it'll end up like the btcc, full of pay as you go drivers with barely any manufacturer support in the series.
It's part of the bigger issue with the decline of Ford Australia and Holden full stop.
Both Ford and GM have planned to end actual manufacturing in Australia - Ford by 2016 and Holden by 2017 - with more Falcon or Commodore models. The market for those big V8s has pretty much dried up, and the demand for large saloons is less than half what it was a decade ago.
Quite depressing, as V8 Supercars has been one of the consistently most entertaining championships for years.
Both Ford and GM have planned to end actual manufacturing in Australia - Ford by 2016 and Holden by 2017 - with more Falcon or Commodore models. The market for those big V8s has pretty much dried up, and the demand for large saloons is less than half what it was a decade ago.
Quite depressing, as V8 Supercars has been one of the consistently most entertaining championships for years.
The scheduling cock-up is just that. Its mind-boggling. I have no idea what V8SC really thought it was losing to the Bathurst 12 hr anyway? Unless they felt people were going to it instead of the "real" Bathurst? Regardless, crowds are not central to the sport anymore, TV viewing figures are. So who cares who actually turns up to either? F1 is a case in point.
The issue for the series is that Ford and Holden have both announced that they will no longer manufacture in Australia. In essence, that means no more cars made exclusively for the Australian market which means the death of the Falcon and Commodore (acknowledging that the Commodore is exported to the Middle East and the platform used elsewhere by GM). So in two years time, there will be no cars (as they are now) on which to base the current series. Add to that, incoming manufacturers like Volvo and Nissan have had to race cars/silhouettes (i.e. V8 sedans) that you cant buy in the showrooms, limiting the true marketing capacity of their investment.
So what else to do? The sport has to evolve. Who do we blame? Cheap Asian labour and car manufacturers for killing our car industry? Our Car industry for not moving with the times 15 yrs ago? The mining boom for enabling everyone to afford European cars? Unions for insisting on continuous pay rises for manufacturing labour? Its just globalisation. Australia's top tier tin top series needs to stay in tune with the car makers because they need a marketing platform and the public need to see cars they can relate to. It still counts for a lot here.
Thankfully, I think the Australian buying public has matured somewhat since the Godzillas and Sierras came and dominated and drivers were booed on the podium. A 10yr old Skyline is as much if not a more legitimate choice for the digital generation's first car as old Australian V8s, of which there are now relatively few. So I think we might not be barrelling towards to the disaster that it first looks like. I've been attending the Australian Touring Car Championships on and off since 1984 and will be very sorry to see them go. But in order for the series to stay relevant and sustainable, what choice does it have?
The issue for the series is that Ford and Holden have both announced that they will no longer manufacture in Australia. In essence, that means no more cars made exclusively for the Australian market which means the death of the Falcon and Commodore (acknowledging that the Commodore is exported to the Middle East and the platform used elsewhere by GM). So in two years time, there will be no cars (as they are now) on which to base the current series. Add to that, incoming manufacturers like Volvo and Nissan have had to race cars/silhouettes (i.e. V8 sedans) that you cant buy in the showrooms, limiting the true marketing capacity of their investment.
So what else to do? The sport has to evolve. Who do we blame? Cheap Asian labour and car manufacturers for killing our car industry? Our Car industry for not moving with the times 15 yrs ago? The mining boom for enabling everyone to afford European cars? Unions for insisting on continuous pay rises for manufacturing labour? Its just globalisation. Australia's top tier tin top series needs to stay in tune with the car makers because they need a marketing platform and the public need to see cars they can relate to. It still counts for a lot here.
Thankfully, I think the Australian buying public has matured somewhat since the Godzillas and Sierras came and dominated and drivers were booed on the podium. A 10yr old Skyline is as much if not a more legitimate choice for the digital generation's first car as old Australian V8s, of which there are now relatively few. So I think we might not be barrelling towards to the disaster that it first looks like. I've been attending the Australian Touring Car Championships on and off since 1984 and will be very sorry to see them go. But in order for the series to stay relevant and sustainable, what choice does it have?
I am now only a partial observer... with a seven month old it's hard to justify devoting the time to watching telly (..!)
but yeah it has it's foibles but for me it's one of the best things out there.
I still like F1 but more for the politics etc!
WEC is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread (especially if you read evo) but it just leaves me cold.. the races are too long the cars a a bit 'meh' and whilst i like the idea of the different technologies competing the sort of 'econess' still detracts from it.
conversely V8SC has unecessary flame spitting, tyres and brakes that aren't good enough and good (nowadays) old fashioned 'not enough fuel' regs.
My dad hadn't really seen it for a long time and was captivated by the Bathurst race a few weeks ago..
If there was a race in the UK I'd be right there and so would everyone else on here! (even if it would inevitably be at Brands!).
compare it to to the british second hand family car championship.. I am now too old I think. I am a 34 year old old fart who remembers supertouring and went to gazillions of races at Oulton and Donnington. a mishmashed grid of random cars knocking into each other is a bit 'silly'...
...the driving standards in V8SC are incredibly good in comparison..
so in short yeah maybe they could do better, maybe it's weird having the v8 rwd S60s (the coolest cars in V8SC!)..but you know what.. i have given up worrying about it.. especially when they switch to the 'NASCAR KERB CAM' "WUM-WUMWUM-WUM--WUMWUMWUM-WUM....WUM...!"
but yeah it has it's foibles but for me it's one of the best things out there.
I still like F1 but more for the politics etc!
WEC is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread (especially if you read evo) but it just leaves me cold.. the races are too long the cars a a bit 'meh' and whilst i like the idea of the different technologies competing the sort of 'econess' still detracts from it.
conversely V8SC has unecessary flame spitting, tyres and brakes that aren't good enough and good (nowadays) old fashioned 'not enough fuel' regs.
My dad hadn't really seen it for a long time and was captivated by the Bathurst race a few weeks ago..
If there was a race in the UK I'd be right there and so would everyone else on here! (even if it would inevitably be at Brands!).
compare it to to the british second hand family car championship.. I am now too old I think. I am a 34 year old old fart who remembers supertouring and went to gazillions of races at Oulton and Donnington. a mishmashed grid of random cars knocking into each other is a bit 'silly'...
...the driving standards in V8SC are incredibly good in comparison..
so in short yeah maybe they could do better, maybe it's weird having the v8 rwd S60s (the coolest cars in V8SC!)..but you know what.. i have given up worrying about it.. especially when they switch to the 'NASCAR KERB CAM' "WUM-WUMWUM-WUM--WUMWUMWUM-WUM....WUM...!"
Out of interest what are the new regs? is it like the new DTM/JGTC regs? or a more 'economical' version?
if it was the same thing then maybe it might finally work to have a international series at some poiint.. or you know what about having the 3 local series and then briging them all together in Silvertone for a big RedBull "sponsored super big money show down extravangaza'?!
how ace would that be!
i misread some of the story in haste... it would be a real shame to lose the v8s.
if it was the same thing then maybe it might finally work to have a international series at some poiint.. or you know what about having the 3 local series and then briging them all together in Silvertone for a big RedBull "sponsored super big money show down extravangaza'?!
how ace would that be!
i misread some of the story in haste... it would be a real shame to lose the v8s.
I think that change has been inevitable for some time as the manufacturer support and the local V8 market has drastically altered. I also think that the cars became less relevant the more space frame they became, but maybe that's just me!
As some one else said, it's globalisation of the automotive market so perhaps it's time to look at the V8 Superstars type series that ran for a while in Italy as a template. There are still manufacturers making large engined multi cylinder cars so maybe that's the way ahead with cars such as the BMW M4 or M5, Audi RS5 or 6, Porsche Panamera, Maserati Quattroporte, Holden Monaro, Aston Martin V8, Corvette, Ford Mustang, jaguar, Lexus etc all taking part.
Crikey, I'd like to see such a series in Europe as the tier above BTCC type series; a bit like th good old days of the European Touring Car Championship for Group 2 cars. Probably a better alternative to DTM as well.
As some one else said, it's globalisation of the automotive market so perhaps it's time to look at the V8 Superstars type series that ran for a while in Italy as a template. There are still manufacturers making large engined multi cylinder cars so maybe that's the way ahead with cars such as the BMW M4 or M5, Audi RS5 or 6, Porsche Panamera, Maserati Quattroporte, Holden Monaro, Aston Martin V8, Corvette, Ford Mustang, jaguar, Lexus etc all taking part.
Crikey, I'd like to see such a series in Europe as the tier above BTCC type series; a bit like th good old days of the European Touring Car Championship for Group 2 cars. Probably a better alternative to DTM as well.
andy97 said:
I think that change has been inevitable for some time as the manufacturer support and the local V8 market has drastically altered. I also think that the cars became less relevant the more space frame they became, but maybe that's just me!
As some one else said, it's globalisation of the automotive market so perhaps it's time to look at the V8 Superstars type series that ran for a while in Italy as a template. There are still manufacturers making large engined multi cylinder cars so maybe that's the way ahead with cars such as the BMW M4 or M5, Audi RS5 or 6, Porsche Panamera, Maserati Quattroporte, Holden Monaro, Aston Martin V8, Corvette, Ford Mustang, jaguar, Lexus etc all taking part.
Crikey, I'd like to see such a series in Europe as the tier above BTCC type series; a bit like th good old days of the European Touring Car Championship for Group 2 cars. Probably a better alternative to DTM as well.
I love the V8's it's the reason I watch them over BTCC yes sometimes the races are tedious but the sound of the V8's never gets boring if anything the rules should stay similar to what they are now but with a slight tweak in the sense that the car has to be a minimum length & width with a fuel break for those running V8's the Superstars Series(again thank MotorsTV for the coverage) in Europe is going the right way they just need to lose the arch extensions & they'd be on the money.As some one else said, it's globalisation of the automotive market so perhaps it's time to look at the V8 Superstars type series that ran for a while in Italy as a template. There are still manufacturers making large engined multi cylinder cars so maybe that's the way ahead with cars such as the BMW M4 or M5, Audi RS5 or 6, Porsche Panamera, Maserati Quattroporte, Holden Monaro, Aston Martin V8, Corvette, Ford Mustang, jaguar, Lexus etc all taking part.
Crikey, I'd like to see such a series in Europe as the tier above BTCC type series; a bit like th good old days of the European Touring Car Championship for Group 2 cars. Probably a better alternative to DTM as well.
In terms of cost over a season a Naturally Aspirated V8 is easier to maintain than a four or six pot turbo
Thank god the V8's are coming to an end. I've never understood the Aussie fascination with American engines. At least the UK I figure you guys want what you can't have, though god knows why.
I'm an Australian working in motorsport (including 8 years in F1) and I can't stand the V8's in Aus. They sucked the life out of the whole motorsport industry and absorbed every sponsorship dollar while $hitting all over the rest of the industry. Plus, they were always marketed exclusively to beer guzzling rednecks making the venues unpleasant for family trips, and the cars themselves were only NASCAR images of the road cars. Previously only the floorpan and doors of the road car, and now days, only the doors of some models, the rest is 5.0L engines that aren't available in ANY road car, with the same chassis, gearbox, diff, suspension, brakes, rims, everything for every car, so supporting a particular marque is really quite the joke.
Good riddance to the formula. I hope it dies a swift death and can be replaced by GT3 which is quite a popular category here now, and some true production based touring cars at the junior level.
I'm an Australian working in motorsport (including 8 years in F1) and I can't stand the V8's in Aus. They sucked the life out of the whole motorsport industry and absorbed every sponsorship dollar while $hitting all over the rest of the industry. Plus, they were always marketed exclusively to beer guzzling rednecks making the venues unpleasant for family trips, and the cars themselves were only NASCAR images of the road cars. Previously only the floorpan and doors of the road car, and now days, only the doors of some models, the rest is 5.0L engines that aren't available in ANY road car, with the same chassis, gearbox, diff, suspension, brakes, rims, everything for every car, so supporting a particular marque is really quite the joke.
Good riddance to the formula. I hope it dies a swift death and can be replaced by GT3 which is quite a popular category here now, and some true production based touring cars at the junior level.
ChrisPap said:
Thank god the V8's are coming to an end. I've never understood the Aussie fascination with American engines. At least the UK I figure you guys want what you can't have, though god knows why.
I'm an Australian working in motorsport (including 8 years in F1) and I can't stand the V8's in Aus. They sucked the life out of the whole motorsport industry and absorbed every sponsorship dollar while $hitting all over the rest of the industry. Plus, they were always marketed exclusively to beer guzzling rednecks making the venues unpleasant for family trips, and the cars themselves were only NASCAR images of the road cars. Previously only the floorpan and doors of the road car, and now days, only the doors of some models, the rest is 5.0L engines that aren't available in ANY road car, with the same chassis, gearbox, diff, suspension, brakes, rims, everything for every car, so supporting a particular marque is really quite the joke.
Good riddance to the formula. I hope it dies a swift death and can be replaced by GT3 which is quite a popular category here now, and some true production based touring cars at the junior level.
You can hardly blame the series for that? Sponsors wouldn't sponsor if there wasn't an audience. They put their dollars where people put their eyes. Australia's population is small enough that it can really only sustain one large well-sponsored series. I'm an Australian working in motorsport (including 8 years in F1) and I can't stand the V8's in Aus. They sucked the life out of the whole motorsport industry and absorbed every sponsorship dollar while $hitting all over the rest of the industry. Plus, they were always marketed exclusively to beer guzzling rednecks making the venues unpleasant for family trips, and the cars themselves were only NASCAR images of the road cars. Previously only the floorpan and doors of the road car, and now days, only the doors of some models, the rest is 5.0L engines that aren't available in ANY road car, with the same chassis, gearbox, diff, suspension, brakes, rims, everything for every car, so supporting a particular marque is really quite the joke.
Good riddance to the formula. I hope it dies a swift death and can be replaced by GT3 which is quite a popular category here now, and some true production based touring cars at the junior level.
I've been attending ATCC since I was 6. Never had an issue with drunk rednecks (which is not to say there aren't any).
Not strictly true on the engines, the Mercs and Volvos run their own engines. So worth barracking for.
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