New body advice - a step upwards
Discussion
I cut my teeth on digital photography with my 400D which has done me well over the last 3 years I've had it but I think it's time I moved on. But I know sod all about what body to upgrade to - my plans have always involved improving the glass before the body. I do find myself hitting the limits sometimes though, and there's a minor fault (flash hotshoe) that to fix will probably cost a chunk that would better be put into a new body anyway.
Budget first. Ideally around £600 but I could probably stretch to £700 if it gets me to that sweet spot of value/features for money. And I'm quite happy if that's for a 2nd hand body.
Intended use will be a mix of landscape, astro and portraits (the latter termed loosely - photo's of the little 'un flying around like an exocet missile is the reality.)
In terms of what the 400D doesn't quite do, there are a few basic features - screen decidedly average for reviewing shots, no liveview, no video etc - but the main thing is noise performance. I'd like something that'll produce less ISO noise, and which when I push a shot in post will fare slightly better.
I'm not fussed about frame rates etc and I don't think FF will be in price range but I'd have no problem if it were (even if it meant selling on my beloved Tokina 11-16mm.)
Can anyone suggest a short list to read up on? Any that come with the 24-105L would be a massive bonus, as regardless of the body that's a lens I intend to add to the collection.
Budget first. Ideally around £600 but I could probably stretch to £700 if it gets me to that sweet spot of value/features for money. And I'm quite happy if that's for a 2nd hand body.
Intended use will be a mix of landscape, astro and portraits (the latter termed loosely - photo's of the little 'un flying around like an exocet missile is the reality.)
In terms of what the 400D doesn't quite do, there are a few basic features - screen decidedly average for reviewing shots, no liveview, no video etc - but the main thing is noise performance. I'd like something that'll produce less ISO noise, and which when I push a shot in post will fare slightly better.
I'm not fussed about frame rates etc and I don't think FF will be in price range but I'd have no problem if it were (even if it meant selling on my beloved Tokina 11-16mm.)
Can anyone suggest a short list to read up on? Any that come with the 24-105L would be a massive bonus, as regardless of the body that's a lens I intend to add to the collection.
DibblyDobbler said:
You're probably looking at a 5D2 if you go FF but will your lenses work with it and still cover the correct focal lengths you need? Second hand 6D maybe just out of reach I think.
Didn't realise the 5D2 and 1Ds2 were within reach second hand.On the lens front, allowing for the crop factor I think the 24-105L will be wide enough for what I want to use most of the time, and a 17-40mm would be on the cards somewhere down the line.
Sitting here scouring for comparisons - doesn't seem that too many people compare the 5D2 to the 1DS2. But pro's list for each to help make a decision:
1DS2:
Better/faster AF, better in low light
Durability/sealing
Max shutter count
Better battery life
5D2:
Slightly higher MP for cropping but comparable IQ
Some argue less noisy at ISO 1600-3200
Live view
Arguably better screen
Much less weight (my photo outings are often up mountains, sometimes camping) and bulk.
Is that a fair summary?
1DS2:
Better/faster AF, better in low light
Durability/sealing
Max shutter count
Better battery life
5D2:
Slightly higher MP for cropping but comparable IQ
Some argue less noisy at ISO 1600-3200
Live view
Arguably better screen
Much less weight (my photo outings are often up mountains, sometimes camping) and bulk.
Is that a fair summary?
PBLP said:
Up your budget Chris and get a 6D, come on you know you want too 
The missus is going to kill me one way or another, so I'd rather have the extra couple of hundred quid for a train ticket out of harms way. (And on a practical note, I need to find some money for a 24-105L whatever I go with.)markmullen said:
Yep.
The weight isn't a huge issue, as you know I use them for similar jobs and its only on the very longest days when you feel the difference.
I won't write it off on that alone then, but I do think I need to pop somewhere and have a play with one and see how a 1DS2 feels in the flesh before I make a firm decision as whilst I do take a tripod with me on specific photo trips, a lot of the shots I take are en route to and from the location - so I still do a lot of handheld shooting.The weight isn't a huge issue, as you know I use them for similar jobs and its only on the very longest days when you feel the difference.
DibblyDobbler said:
Or why not stick to a crop sensor a go with the 70D brand new - bang up to date kit and meant to be very good. Sorry to throw in a flanker
Like making a decision wasn't hard enough?Don't know what to make of the 70D - I like the feature set and the video options, and it sounds like a noise is a step up from the 60D (so a significant jump from my 400D I would have thought.) Anyone care to speculate on IQ of the 70D vs. a 5D2 or 1DS2?
tenohfive said:
Anyone care to speculate on IQ of the 70D vs. a 5D2 or 1DS2?
Well the 2 FF bodies are roughly 10 years old old and the 70D is bang up to date - if these were the choices I'd have the 70D (or save a bit longer and get a 6D if you really want to go FF).What lenses do you currently have though? This is quite a big factor isn't it?
DibblyDobbler said:
Well the 2 FF bodies are roughly 10 years old old and the 70D is bang up to date - if these were the choices I'd have the 70D (or save a bit longer and get a 6D if you really want to go FF).
What lenses do you currently have though? This is quite a big factor isn't it?
It usually is, but with a small lens collection perhaps less so.What lenses do you currently have though? This is quite a big factor isn't it?
Tokina 11-16mm
Canon 18-55mm ISII
Canon 50mm f1.8
And as I say, the 24-105L to follow shortly - I suspect that'll become my walkaround lens, it covers most of the kit lens range (which I just don't use much because I'm not happy with the IQ.) I don't find myself pining after any other glass right now - there's some I'd like, but nothing else I feel need right now.
If I went FF I'd sell on the Tokina and replace it with a 17-40 when funds allow, and carry on using the nifty fifty for family duties. But I'm open to suggestion - I think I can be happy with either. At the end of the day my 400D is very dated, and whichever option I choose I believe it'll be a big step up in terms of performance.
tenohfive said:
It usually is, but with a small lens collection perhaps less so.
Tokina 11-16mm
Canon 18-55mm ISII
Canon 50mm f1.8
And as I say, the 24-105L to follow shortly - I suspect that'll become my walkaround lens, it covers most of the kit lens range (which I just don't use much because I'm not happy with the IQ.) I don't find myself pining after any other glass right now - there's some I'd like, but nothing else I feel need right now.
If I went FF I'd sell on the Tokina and replace it with a 17-40 when funds allow, and carry on using the nifty fifty for family duties. But I'm open to suggestion - I think I can be happy with either. At the end of the day my 400D is very dated, and whichever option I choose I believe it'll be a big step up in terms of performance.
Hmm - Toki 11-16 is really good but if you're dead set on the 24-105 I'd say go FF as it's too long really for a walkabout on a crop.Tokina 11-16mm
Canon 18-55mm ISII
Canon 50mm f1.8
And as I say, the 24-105L to follow shortly - I suspect that'll become my walkaround lens, it covers most of the kit lens range (which I just don't use much because I'm not happy with the IQ.) I don't find myself pining after any other glass right now - there's some I'd like, but nothing else I feel need right now.
If I went FF I'd sell on the Tokina and replace it with a 17-40 when funds allow, and carry on using the nifty fifty for family duties. But I'm open to suggestion - I think I can be happy with either. At the end of the day my 400D is very dated, and whichever option I choose I believe it'll be a big step up in terms of performance.
If it was me (and I am indubitably an arse so take this with a pinch of salt) - I have the 70D, keep the Toki and the nifty 50 and get a 15-85 for your walkabout. If you really want the 24-105 then get one of the FF bodies, sell the Toki and scrape up enough for the 24-105. 17-40 later if you really felt you needed it.
Maybe try and get a quick play with one of the possibilities and see how it feels? I reckon the FF bodies could feel a bit dated next to the 70D...
I'm going to butt out now and hopefully somebody more knowledgable (
Rob!) will come along 
5d2 felt a lot dated in comparison to my 7d let alone a 70d.
5d2 will though be a good stop better than the 70d for low light and astro, though the 6d really blows that away easily.
The 24-105L IMO is an OK lens , nothing particularly great about it, but nothing bad either. I preferred the 17-55 on crop.
5d2 will though be a good stop better than the 70d for low light and astro, though the 6d really blows that away easily.
The 24-105L IMO is an OK lens , nothing particularly great about it, but nothing bad either. I preferred the 17-55 on crop.
I just bought a mint s/h 6D from my local shop for only £100 more than Camera Price Buster have the 70D. If the FF itch is there it will need scratching, so better to do it sooner rather than latter, and the high ISO performance of the 6D is leagues ahead of the 5DMk1 and Mk2. I only had one compatible FF lens (the nifty fifty), but have added a 24mm f2.8 USM II lens as I like to shoot wide, and I wanted something that was lightweight and compact, which on the whole FF zooms are not. (For me another advantage of the 24mm was that all my existing filters fit it)
In your shoes, I'd get a s/h 6D, and sell your EF-S glass and buy one decent EF lens.
In your shoes, I'd get a s/h 6D, and sell your EF-S glass and buy one decent EF lens.
I think I see what you guys mean about the 24-105L - I'd still be tempted if I went FF (is there a better walkaround for FF of similar reach?) but either the 17-55 or 15-85 makes more sense on a crop. The latter covers all the reach I'd want anyway (on a crop) and reviews suggest the quality is almost as good as the 17-55, so that would be my preference.
I'm veering towards the 70D right now - it's less outlay so I'll be able to get the body and 15-85 much sooner (before my next photography trip), I like the fact it's got video and some of the other modern features. Astro will be infrequent, and I think noise performance will still be well ahead of my 400D - even if it's a chunk below a FF equivalent performance. And a small thing but having a working hotshoe means that indoors low light performance is less of an issue, whilst the Lee filter kit and grads I'm hoping Santa will deliver should reduce my need to push shots so hard in post.
And having a good APS-C body in the stable doesn't sound like a bad shout in future - when I do make the jump to FF the 70D and it's reach sound fairly sensible as a second body.
I will go to FF eventually - probably in a couple of years - but I think I can live with a crop for now. I'm going to try and pop down to somewhere I can check the 70D out in the flesh this weekend hopefully.
A bit rambling, but does that make any sort of sense or have a missed something fundamental and obvious?
The sums I'm working off, all based on eBay sold auctions - so buying second hand.
70D = £500.
15-85mm= £300.
Total: £800
Canon 6D: £800.
24-105L - £350-400.
17-40mm - £350.
Sale of Tokina 11-16mm & 18-55mm:
+£300.
Total: £1250.
Canon 5D2: £600 (possibly more)
Same other sums as the 6D.
Total: £1050
Canon 1DS2: £500
Same sums as the 6D.
Total: £950
I'm veering towards the 70D right now - it's less outlay so I'll be able to get the body and 15-85 much sooner (before my next photography trip), I like the fact it's got video and some of the other modern features. Astro will be infrequent, and I think noise performance will still be well ahead of my 400D - even if it's a chunk below a FF equivalent performance. And a small thing but having a working hotshoe means that indoors low light performance is less of an issue, whilst the Lee filter kit and grads I'm hoping Santa will deliver should reduce my need to push shots so hard in post.
And having a good APS-C body in the stable doesn't sound like a bad shout in future - when I do make the jump to FF the 70D and it's reach sound fairly sensible as a second body.
I will go to FF eventually - probably in a couple of years - but I think I can live with a crop for now. I'm going to try and pop down to somewhere I can check the 70D out in the flesh this weekend hopefully.
A bit rambling, but does that make any sort of sense or have a missed something fundamental and obvious?
The sums I'm working off, all based on eBay sold auctions - so buying second hand.
70D = £500.
15-85mm= £300.
Total: £800
Canon 6D: £800.
24-105L - £350-400.
17-40mm - £350.
Sale of Tokina 11-16mm & 18-55mm:
+£300.
Total: £1250.
Canon 5D2: £600 (possibly more)
Same other sums as the 6D.
Total: £1050
Canon 1DS2: £500
Same sums as the 6D.
Total: £950
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