The " war on the motorist"

The " war on the motorist"

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Discussion

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
We all like choice, however at what point do you reduce choice when one persons choices impact on others?
Well, that's the question isn't it. However reading your posts I suspect that the point for you comes rather sooner than it does for me.

Devil2575 said:
As for better for the individual, that again isn't as straight forward I suspect. An individual may consider it better for them to be able to do a specific activity, but the long term effect of everyone making that same choice may be bad for that same individual.

For example, if traffic congestion is a problem that impacts economic growth then an individual may be hurting their own long term financial situation by continuing to drive even though it feels like the most convenient solution in the short term. I suspect many people don't think about stuff like this in that respect.
Indeed, they don't. Including the ones we pay to do just that, unfortunately.

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
coppice said:
CrutyRammers said:
"Need" is the creed of socialism and authoritarianism, we like choice here thanks.
Well , you learn something new every day ; there was me thinking all I need is a cup of tea . I had never thought the consequences through - so thanks .
No, you want a cup of tea. You don't need it. All you need is water. Tea is a decadent drink for the wasteful.

Froomee

1,418 posts

168 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
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Funkycoldribena said:
BGarside said:
Cycling is one of the cheapest transportation options. Cost should not be a deterrent to anybody.
It ain't the cost.The last thing I want to do at 7.30 after a fry up,2 coffees and 2 tabs is get dressed up like Chris Hoy and get soaked in the pissing down rain.
I used to cycle in London and whilst every journey was an adventure Id rather walk (which I do now) or sit on public transport in the dry during winter months.

BGarside

1,564 posts

136 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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irocfan said:
good for you - personally I like to get into work non-sweaty/cold/drenched/muddy/a.n.other (delete as applicable). What many cyclists seem to fail to appreciate is that it is frequently not convenient to go by bike (I'll say here and now however that frequently it is convenient)
This issue is greatly is overrated. It's amazing how many times there is a window of opportunity to cycle to/from work when it's not actually pissing down/snowing/whatever. I very rarely have to cancel my ride to work and take the bus/car because of the weather conditions.

Just keep your work clothes at work, cycle in in cycling gear and get changed.

Ride a sensible bike with mudguards and you won't get covered in mud even when the roads are filthy (as they are down here in Somerset at the moment).

There are quite a few posts on this thread where people are rationalising their choice of driving by invoking various supposedly dire consequences of cycling which means they could never under any circumstances cycle anywhere. I suspect many of the obstacles are in their heads.

The biggest deterrent for me is the behaviour of British drivers towards cyclists. By all means choose to use your car, but please respect my choice to cycle by not trying to run me off the road.

heebeegeetee

28,598 posts

247 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
BGarside said:
irocfan said:
good for you - personally I like to get into work non-sweaty/cold/drenched/muddy/a.n.other (delete as applicable). What many cyclists seem to fail to appreciate is that it is frequently not convenient to go by bike (I'll say here and now however that frequently it is convenient)
This issue is greatly is overrated. It's amazing how many times there is a window of opportunity to cycle to/from work when it's not actually pissing down/snowing/whatever. I very rarely have to cancel my ride to work and take the bus/car because of the weather conditions.

Just keep your work clothes at work, cycle in in cycling gear and get changed.

Ride a sensible bike with mudguards and you won't get covered in mud even when the roads are filthy (as they are down here in Somerset at the moment).

There are quite a few posts on this thread where people are rationalising their choice of driving by invoking various supposedly dire consequences of cycling which means they could never under any circumstances cycle anywhere. I suspect many of the obstacles are in their heads.

The biggest deterrent for me is the behaviour of British drivers towards cyclists. By all means choose to use your car, but please respect my choice to cycle by not trying to run me off the road.
Again, cross that piece of water to the south-east of our island and you come to that magical land where millions cycle to work in ordinary clothes. They don't get sweaty because thanks to their cycling, they are healthy.

They do all ride bikes you never see in the UK though, bikes that look far more comfy and efficient to ride, whereas in the UK almost all cyclists use bikes that put far more weight onto their hands and wrists.

I have always wondered what it is about us in the UK, whereby in a country so benign in terms of weather and terrain, both cyclists and car drivers er so often towards vehicles based on off-road use. smile




WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
HertsBiker said:
And unfortunately almost all the big queues I encounter now are headed by a stupid car driver who is too frightened to overtake a cyclist. Or is it that the stupid car driver has been intimidated by all the recommended clearances we are supposed to leave. Are cycles the cause, or the effect of queuing?
You just made that up...

PS, you're not stuck in traffic, you *are* the traffic.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
CrutyRammers said:
Devil2575 said:
We all like choice, however at what point do you reduce choice when one persons choices impact on others?
Well, that's the question isn't it. However reading your posts I suspect that the point for you comes rather sooner than it does for me.
I doubt that, I suspect the issue is that there is a difference between what issues would require that kind of action.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
BGarside said:
This issue is greatly is overrated. It's amazing how many times there is a window of opportunity to cycle to/from work when it's not actually pissing down/snowing/whatever. I very rarely have to cancel my ride to work and take the bus/car because of the weather conditions.

Just keep your work clothes at work, cycle in in cycling gear and get changed.

Ride a sensible bike with mudguards and you won't get covered in mud even when the roads are filthy (as they are down here in Somerset at the moment).

There are quite a few posts on this thread where people are rationalising their choice of driving by invoking various supposedly dire consequences of cycling which means they could never under any circumstances cycle anywhere. I suspect many of the obstacles are in their heads.

The biggest deterrent for me is the behaviour of British drivers towards cyclists. By all means choose to use your car, but please respect my choice to cycle by not trying to run me off the road.
I agree, although I would say that the problem with motorists isn't as bad as many think. The risks of riding a bike are higher per mile than driving a car but still substantially safer than riding a motorbike. Once you factor in the increased fitness from riding a bike then the overall result is a net gain.

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
You lot championing the bike, what do you do when you need a need bit or accessory it needs service or repair? Mostly go to bike shops I guess? Well bike shops need electricity, lighting etc and I'm an electrician, a guy you need to keep it all going, and I need to drive a van to carry all the tools, lamps, ballasts etc you bike shops require.

The parking situation in the west end/city is so ridiculous now I'm seriously thinking about employing a kid to drive my van in continuous loops of the block while I work, this will be more cost effective than trying to locate a valid parking space- as this can take up to an hour, the minimal supply of parking is to "discourage" me from driving you see. Unfortunately no-one has yet found a way to discourage lighting from failing so discouraging me from driving is to discourage you from using your bikes is it not?

Parking and con charging for a week adds £250-£300 to a job. Thats pure aggressive, unfair, upfront taxation on being "allowed" to do my job before I've picked up a tool.

Add to that the tickets- I recently appealed a fraudulent £80 "non-payment" fine for a fine not left on my van. Got a £127 court demand. sent a cheque with letter asking why I was being fined. cheque returned, then 3 weeks later receive £200 fine for non-payment of £127 turns up. phoned up to ask why I'm being fined when I've tried to pay and why I'm being fined at all and was told they couldn't answer my questions, and that unless I paid immediately it was going up again.

Vehicles represent an easy way to gouge money from people that, especially with all this current right on environmental guff, is being exploited for all it's worth- Can anyone offer an example of any other walk of life where people- just little people trying to go about their necessary biz- are treated this badly?

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Just think, every person you encounter on a bicycle is actually leaving one more parking place that's available when you need to use your vehicle for work smile

BGarside

1,564 posts

136 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
hairyben said:
You lot championing the bike, what do you do when you need a need bit or accessory it needs service or repair? Mostly go to bike shops I guess? Well bike shops need electricity, lighting etc and I'm an electrician, a guy you need to keep it all going, and I need to drive a van to carry all the tools, lamps, ballasts etc you bike shops require.
I fix my own bikes at home, using bits ordered online. It's a piece of cake compared to working on a car...

BGarside

1,564 posts

136 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
I agree, although I would say that the problem with motorists isn't as bad as many think. The risks of riding a bike are higher per mile than driving a car but still substantially safer than riding a motorbike. Once you factor in the increased fitness from riding a bike then the overall result is a net gain.
I guess bikers of the motorised variety get a lot of the same issues with muppet drivers we cyclists get, apart from the close passes.

I don't think I'd want to ride a motorbike in the UK, given the number of car drivers who happily pull out on me when I'm cycling - it's easier to avoid hitting them when you're only travelling at 15-20mph or so...

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
BGarside said:
hairyben said:
You lot championing the bike, what do you do when you need a need bit or accessory it needs service or repair? Mostly go to bike shops I guess? Well bike shops need electricity, lighting etc and I'm an electrician, a guy you need to keep it all going, and I need to drive a van to carry all the tools, lamps, ballasts etc you bike shops require.
I fix my own bikes at home, using bits ordered online. It's a piece of cake compared to working on a car...
yes, I know you do, I knew you would when I typed my post. You're very very clever. Bear in mind though the factories making your parts aren't powered by magic pixiest and fairy dust.

irocfan

40,156 posts

189 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviro_400

Alexander Dennis Enviro400.
Accomodates 64-90 passengers.
Weighs 18 tonnes
Foot print 35 x 8 ft = 280 sqft
Passengers per tonne = 3.5 - 5
Passengers per sqft = 0.23-0.32

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-fi...

Ford Mondeo
Accomodates 5
Weighs 1.5 tonnes
Foor print 6.6 x 15.5 ft = 102 sqft
Passengers per tonne = 3.3
Passengers per sqft = 0.05
fair point - however except at rush hour how often are buses actually full? This alone would drop your PPT tonne from 3.5, factor in the fact that a mondeo is now a big car and the fiesta is now more typical size-wise....

irocfan

40,156 posts

189 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Again, cross that piece of water to the south-east of our island and you come to that magical land where millions cycle to work in ordinary clothes. They don't get sweaty because thanks to their cycling, they are healthy.

They do all ride bikes you never see in the UK though, bikes that look far more comfy and efficient to ride, whereas in the UK almost all cyclists use bikes that put far more weight onto their hands and wrists.

I have always wondered what it is about us in the UK, whereby in a country so benign in terms of weather and terrain, both cyclists and car drivers er so often towards vehicles based on off-road use. smile
this is actually a very good point most times abroad I do see a reasonable number of cyclists - what I don't seem to see however are many Lycra-clad nutters who think they're on the finishing straight of a TdF stage. The whole set-up abroad seems to be more genteel with a subsequent positive knock on effect between said cyclists and other road users

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
irocfan said:
Devil2575 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviro_400

Alexander Dennis Enviro400.
Accomodates 64-90 passengers.
Weighs 18 tonnes
Foot print 35 x 8 ft = 280 sqft
Passengers per tonne = 3.5 - 5
Passengers per sqft = 0.23-0.32

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-fi...

Ford Mondeo
Accomodates 5
Weighs 1.5 tonnes
Foor print 6.6 x 15.5 ft = 102 sqft
Passengers per tonne = 3.3
Passengers per sqft = 0.05
fair point - however except at rush hour how often are buses actually full? This alone would drop your PPT tonne from 3.5, factor in the fact that a mondeo is now a big car and the fiesta is now more typical size-wise....
True, but if more people used buses and not cars then buses would be fuller. The typical car is also not full.
Can a Fiesta sized car acutually accomodate 5 adults in comfort? Given the numbers of Softroaders around i'd say that an increasing number of cars are actually quite big.

mdavids

675 posts

183 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
irocfan said:
this is actually a very good point most times abroad I do see a reasonable number of cyclists - what I don't seem to see however are many Lycra-clad nutters who think they're on the finishing straight of a TdF stage. The whole set-up abroad seems to be more genteel with a subsequent positive knock on effect between said cyclists and other road users
There'll be just as many "lycra clad nutters" but they'll be vastly outnumbered by people using bikes as a means of transport rather than for a hobby or fitness. It's just seen as normal, convenient way of getting around in many european countries whereas in the UK it seems to be the preserve of enthusiasts.

There's lots of reasons why this is the case, perception of danger, lack of infrastructure and not wanting to deal with the borderline psychopathic attitudes displayed by some UK motorists being the main ones IMO.

heebeegeetee

28,598 posts

247 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
mdavids said:
There's lots of reasons why this is the case, perception of danger, lack of infrastructure and not wanting to deal with the kind of borderline psychopathic attitudes displayed by some UK motorists being the main ones IMO.
These are the reasons why I won't cycle and instead sit in my car and block the roads along with everyone else.

I think you touch on a point - there'd perhaps be less "war on motorists" if motorists weren't at war with everyone else - especially when there is this enormous misconception that motorists believe that they alone pay for the roads and therefore can treat everyone they perceive as less worthy very badly.

v12Legs

313 posts

114 months

Friday 19th December 2014
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Are some people seriously blaming congestion and traffic jams on cyclists?
That's some rather odd reasoning.

iloveboost

1,531 posts

161 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
I've always felt that if petrol was untaxed they'd have to get the same amount of tax elsewhere, so it makes no difference to the percentage of disposable income you have.

I think the main problem is that house building is not keeping up with demand. This causes house prices, mortgages and rent to rise faster than incomes. However as property rises predictably in price it's easier to get credit at lower interest rates, making house prices rise even faster and fuelling more investment from landlords. Then every time a landlord buys a house to rent, it takes another house to buy off the market, making house prices rise even faster. frown
I think after the housing boom of the sixties, the government decided to regulate house building closely. Fair enough but as a consequence they didn't, and still don't, allow enough houses to be built. They call it a 'cost of living crisis' but I think every government since then has messed house building up. and they don't seem to be able to fix it.