Winter Starting A Perkins - No Glow Plugs

[V8RX7]

Hi,

I have a 90's Manitou telehander with a non turbo Perkins diesel.

It always starts within 5 seconds.

For the last few weeks as it's got cold, it will not start - it flattens the (good) battery within a minute of cranking because unless it turns over fast, it never starts (I mention this in case it's relevant)

I'm not that good with diesel mechanics but looking at it, it has no glow plugs.

What it has is a wire going to what I presume is a cold start injector on the intake.

What exactly should this do - as I suspect it isn't doing it.

Are there any tips to get an old agricultural diesel to start from cold ?

Thanks

[annodomini2]

Full throttle then crank.

[andyiley]

I used to have one of these engines in an old motorhome & had the same issue.

The part you mention is actually a single glow plug.

You are also right about the engine cranking speed, if it isn't fast enough the engine will not start, I regularly needed to also attach a booster battery when it was cold.

[V8RX7]

I always use full throttle.

I always have had to use a boost pack for the first start of the day

[Megaflow]

With a good battery and starter, it should start down to -10 ish without glow plugs. I'd be looking at the starter motor.

[V8RX7]

The starter has clearly been replaced before I bought it (still shiny).

But as long as it has the battery power it will happily throw it over for a minute, when it should start in seconds.

My T4 van always starts but as soon as it gets cold I use the glow plugs and that means it still starts instantly rather than after 30+ seconds of cranking.

[anonymous-user]

Easy start is you friend for old recalcitrant dervs in winter!!

[one eyed mick]

Easy start also kills injectors !! Perkies were /are always recalcitrant to start but can be usualy tricked into it by 1 remove air pipe to inlet manifold 2 using a stout peice of wire make up a rag torch ,dip in diesel and light hold flame over inlet and crank, viola!!! refit air hose and work machine , done this many times never fails

[V8RX7]

I knew to use Easy Start on old petrol cars - hadn't thought of it for diesels.

How does it hurt injectors - bearing in mind these are hardly state of the art ?

My labourer said they used to light cement bags to start a mixer - maybe I should have listened to him.

So it's the cold air causing the issue - Why ?

[andyiley]

Cold diesel gets a bit waxy & lazy, battery performance drops off, both of which are your issue.

[shoehorn]

one eyed mick said:

Easy start also kills injectors !! Perkies were /are always recalcitrant to start but can be usualy tricked into it by 1 remove air pipe to inlet manifold 2 using a stout peice of wire make up a rag torch ,dip in diesel and light hold flame over inlet and crank, viola!!! refit air hose and work machine , done this many times never fails

I use a similar but more adventurous method ,A can of almost any aerosol aimed towards the intake and lit while some one else cranks,warms the cylinders nicely.

[hidetheelephants]

V8RX7 said:

What it has is a wire going to what I presume is a cold start injector on the intake.

What exactly should this do - as I suspect it isn't doing it.

Are there any tips to get an old agricultural diesel to start from cold ?

Thanks

You've identified the problem, the cold start heater is not connected; connect it and forever more enjoy quick starting, at least in a UK climate. Don't use easy start as it fks engines.

[Megaflow]

V8RX7 said:

I knew to use Easy Start on old petrol cars - hadn't thought of it for diesels.

How does it hurt injectors - bearing in mind these are hardly state of the art ?

My labourer said they used to light cement bags to start a mixer - maybe I should have listened to him.

So it's the cold air causing the issue - Why ?

East start won't hurt the injectors, it's sprayed into the air inlet, it goes nowhere near the injectors. Whip the inlet manifold hose off and spray a little into the plenum.

[V8RX7]

hidetheelephants said:

You've identified the problem, the cold start heater is not connected; connect it and forever more enjoy quick starting, at least in a UK climate. Don't use easy start as it fks engines.

No it is connected.

I have no idea if it's working (though I guess not) presumably it knows when it's cold (being in mind this is 90's agricultural machine) and turns on when cranking ?

So if I look down the intake whilst cranking I should see a warm diesel spray ?

[Kinkell]

An old Fergie 390 of mine ran a 4 litre Perkins and it had a thin wire coil that glowed within the inlet side of the engine on turning the start key before firing the engine. It started in cold mornings no problem.
Easy start can be addictive for old dervs and they become reluctant to kindle up even in warm weather so use with caution.

[powerstroke]

V8RX7 said:

hidetheelephants said:

You've identified the problem, the cold start heater is not connected; connect it and forever more enjoy quick starting, at least in a UK climate. Don't use easy start as it fks engines.

No it is connected.

I have no idea if it's working (though I guess not) presumably it knows when it's cold (being in mind this is 90's agricultural machine) and turns on when cranking ?

So if I look down the intake whilst cranking I should see a warm diesel spray ?

Should be a button for it its basicly a glow plug that has a diesel jet so when you operate it a small diesel fire starts in the manifold!! Maybe worth getting a jump lead and power it up see if it works then if it does then trace the feed to it, the other thing that makes starting diesel hard is the wrong or thick old oil the faster you can get it spinning the faster it will start.

[S0 What]

Can't see easy start hurting injectors when it doesn't go through them ??
TBH i use brake cleaner as it's less explosive, easy start makes them knock like hell but it is what it's made to do, start engines.
Have you refilled lately? winter diesel helps at lower temps, my old Mk4 escort was a frikken nightmare in winter but nowhere near as bad as my old CF diesel (same engine?) i used to lite an oily rag in the inlet or use a blow torch in the inlet to get that Bstd to start!

[hidetheelephants]

V8RX7 said:

No it is connected.

I have no idea if it's working (though I guess not) presumably it knows when it's cold (being in mind this is 90's agricultural machine) and turns on when cranking ?

So if I look down the intake whilst cranking I should see a warm diesel spray ?

Depends on what kind of cold start device it is; is there a diesel pipe as well as a electrical connection? The diesel spray should be ignited by the heater/igniter coil, providing heat for the intake air. The other type just heats the air electrically as it is sucked in.

If the device is not getting power when cranking and you rewire to a separate switch, make sure it's wired through a momentary contact switch(only on when you press it) as these things don't have a continuous rating and it will burn out if left switched on.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 19th December 07:21

[andyiley]

As I said above, it is a simple, single glow plug.

Check it is powered on cranking, if not, give it a live feed from a simple spring loaded switch to use when it is cold.

[Doctor Volt]

V8RX7 Posted
1)"it flattens the (good) battery within a minute of cranking"

2)"I have no idea if it's working (though I guess not) presumably it knows when it's cold (being in mind this is 90's agricultural machine) and turns on when cranking ?"

3)"I knew to use Easy Start on old petrol cars - hadn't thought of it for diesels."

---

V8RX7

In answer to -

1)If the battery was good it would not go flat after one minute - This is not the main problem as the engine should start during that one minute fast cranking if the manifold heater was working properly

3) Do not use easy start as it will quickly destroy an old engine

2) The engine does not know that it is cold, (Newer systems use temperature sensing and a heater plug control unit to operate automatically when needed)

You need to test the manifold heater circuit as follows

1)I am pretty sure there is a heater position before the start position on your ignition switch that supplies voltage to the heater before cranking, this position of the key is spring loaded just the same as the crank position so as to stop the heater being left switched on after starting
If there is no heater position on the ignition switch there should be a button switch somewhere to power the heater before cranking

There is also a very good chance that the ignition switch or button is not wired directly to the manifold heater but to a heavy duty solenoid that then supplies power to the heater

If you have no heater position on the ignition switch and there is no button to be found, here lies the problem. Read on

In many cases a situation arises that when an ignition switch is renewed it is replaced with an incorrect switch that has no heater plug position, a button is often fitted and wired to overcome the problem

V8RX7 Check out the above mentioned and post your findings here

Something else to look for is a warning light that tells the operator that the plug is heating or heated up, the warning light will often be wired across a heavy element that is wired in series with the heater and as the heater warms up the element also warms up and the warning light changes from very dim to bright telling the operator all is good to crank
On older vehicles the above mentioned elements are often fitted to the dashboard so the operator can see the element glowing red hot and will know the manifold heater is working and now hot, this method saves the fitting of a warning light to the dash

I dont know how much knowledge you have of vehicle electrics so I ask you to make allowances for my ignorance when reading the following

Until you get around to checking and fixing the fault you could always disconnect the supply wire from the manifold heater and take a heavy duty wire from the battery to the supply terminal of the manifold heater to heat it up, be careful not to short the wire to the body of the plug or engine and also leave a nut on the terminal of the heater as it will save you arcing the end up (It is better to arc up a nut) when you touch the power cable to it

I hope this helps

Cheers. Doctor Volt

Edited by Doctor Volt on Friday 19th December 13:38