(More) Budget Cuts and the (Proposed) 28 Day Bail Limit

(More) Budget Cuts and the (Proposed) 28 Day Bail Limit

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Dibble

Original Poster:

12,923 posts

239 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Yesterday I heard on the news about the latest round of budget cuts. The force I'm in already had to find about £40m of savings by 2016, on top of the previous round, before this latest round of cuts was announced. About £20m has been found. We've already lost about 600 officers and 700 police staff. Officers have gone through natural wastage while many police staff have been made redundant.

By pure chance, yesterday I spoke to a guy I know who used to be a probationer on my shift. He's now a Chief Inspector, has done several stints as an acting Superintendent and is currently on the HQ team trying to "design" the organisation for the future. I have a lot of time for him. He's a very capable police officer, first and foremost and can certainly "walk the walk", not just "talk the talk". He's hugely intelligent, but not afraid to listen to those on the shop floor and he accepts that he's not infallible. He recognises when he gets things wrong.

The "best case scenario" is that we will have to find an additional £55m. The shape of policing in England and Wales will change forever. There will be no proactive targetting capability. We will become an almost entirely reactive "fire brigade" organisation, reacting to events after they have happened. it is estimated that as an absolute minimum, we need about 1,000 officers just to provide 24/7 emergency response cover. There will be no neighbourhood policing, reduced public order and other specialist capability. There will be reactive investigators, but many fewer.

I'm currently a detective constable in CID. Currently I'm investigating two rapes, a public disorder involving seven suspects, two domestic assaults, an indecent images/child abuse enquiry, a blackmail, an unexplained death involving Polish, Hungarian and Lithuanian witnesses and a robbery. Those are my CURRENT cases and don't include enquiries sent from CPS for trial preparation or witness/victim care. I recently spent a month attached to a murder enquiry. No one else progressed my jobs while I was away from my desk. I've worked 4 ten hour shifts this week. I've been in, working, at least half an hour before I'm due to start and there at least half an hour after I should have finished, just to try to get stuff done. Not to get ahead, just to slow the rate I'm sinking at. I haven't claimed any overtime, but even if I had, it wouldn't be authorised. The goodwill pot (mine at least) is rapidly approaching empty.

There should be nine DCs on my team (there are three teams in my office). We have six. The other teams are in a similar position. The 24 hour response teams are similarly denuded. Colleagues in Public Protection are on average carrying SEVENTEEN rapes/serious sexual assaults/child abuse/domestic violence investigations...

My pension, when I eventually get it, after having to work longer, will be worth less, yet cost me more. I personally find it unacceptable that the goalposts have been moved and the "contract" I signed when I joined has been broken. My lifestyle outside work is restricted (where I can live, who I can associate with and I can't be involved in politics). I have no industrial rights as an employee, yet my protections as an "employee" have been reduced.

Yes, I know, I chose to be a Police officer and there are those worse off than me. I'll trot it out before anyone else does "Look at those poor soldiers..." They similarly chose to join the army and knew what they were signing up for. We were in Afghanistan for the last ten years or so, so for anyone joining in the last 6 or 7 not to expect to get shot at somewhere dusty is a little naive. Yes, the pension may be better than what else is available to others, but it is no longer what it was when I agreed to it. And there is nothing to stop those with "rubbish" pensions joining the Police if it's so great...

So if you think the Police "don't do much" now, be prepared for us to do much, much less. I know officers are less willing to put themselves in harm's way, as it is now much easier to get rid of officers, but that aside, we'll not be dealing with neighbour disputes, Facebook abuse, minor RTAs. At all. You'll be trying to sort it out yourselves. And when you finally lose your rag and snot someone, we'll probably come and arrest YOU.

We wont be delivering babies, covering school crossing patrols, doing multi agency safeguarding, or taking people to hospital in lieu of an ambulance. I know of people seriously injured in RTAs having to wait over an hour for an ambulance. Our local ambulance trust recently declared an "emergency incident" as they had over TWO HUNDRED calls for service waiting for deployment in my county...

Then let's get on to Teresa May's brilliant 28 day bail limit. Its unworkable. I work shifts. I work some ten hour shifts, so effectively I'm at work for less than 20 of those 28 days. Let's say 18 days out of 28 as a rough guide.

It takes up to a month to get some phone data from the network providers.
Advice files to CPS for charging decisions take more than 9 weeks.
Forensic service providers are overwhelmed.
On top of live investigations, I'm expected to get witnesses to Court and look after them while they're there.
Its taken me over a month to get a statement (ONE STATEMENT) in relation to a rape, due to not being able to get hold of the witness, despite daily telephone calls, text messages and home visits. When I have made appointments, I've arrived to find no witness.
By the nature of the work I do, the enquiries are more complex and ts have to be crossed and is dotted.
I have 3 suspects on bail for child abuse images. They were arrested in October and bailed for the computers to be examined. The current Target date for the examination is March next year, by a department that's been cut, due to previous cuts (because it's not like every single job I deal with has a smartphone that needs looking at...)

Teresa May is, frankly, a fantasist if she thinks enquiries can physically be completed in 28 days.

If I could find work elsewhere for similar money, I'd leave tomorrow. The only thing keeping me there is the money. Not job satisfaction, not "helping" people, not seeing dangerous people put in prison. It's the money.

I'd like to be able to say its going to get worse before it gets better.

It's not. It's just going to get worse. Much, much worse.

Dibble

Original Poster:

12,923 posts

239 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Title fail. It should be "28 Days" not "2 Days".

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Dibble said:
Title fail. It should be "28 Days" not "2 Days".
No, 2 days is the plan for next week in cloud cuckoo land.

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

112 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Theresa May and that idiot Grayling at the MOJ are doing a sterling job of totally fking up the legal and policing system. Integrity of both is being savaged in the name of saving what is, in the grand scheme of things, pennies from the public purse.


Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
I feel for you. I obviously know nothing about these things which is why I am a lowly citizen and not a politician but it makes no sense to cut any spending on frontline policing and associated back office staff.

The frontline policing budget should be protected and increased year on year in as the population increases. It should be like the NHS and Education. There are so many things that spending could be reduced on or eliminated

1. Nuclear weapons (Trident)
2. Countless unecessary foreign wars.
3. Monarchy
4. House of Lords

In as much as I dislike the police as an organisation, we need the good officers to be supported to keep us and our communities safe.

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
The public don't know (and some don't want to know) about the decimation of frontline Policing and the Criminal Justice system by the Government.

Another £299 million cut a few days ago. The Tories have stated that there will be at least ANOTHER 20% cut after the election if they win. Their stated aim is to reduce Officer numbers from the 140'000 in 2010 down to 80000. We've already lost 20000, so another 40000 to go. Our favourite Political lackey Mr Winsor, has been awarded a new five year contract worth £1 million. That's on top of the £10 million the HMIC are getting from Police budgets. IPCC get an extra £30 million and the College of Policing gets £4.5 million to promote direct entry (All taken from existing Police budgets). Frontline Policing will be dead. There will be no roads policing, no pro-active or other specialists units.

Theresa May recently had her hissy fit and castigated the Police for apparently 'fiddling' figures. Odd that she and all the other Tory liars, continue to use these very figures to trumpet their 'crime is down' message. (It's not). The 28 day bail limit is a classic example of a woman with absolutely no grasp on reality. It takes longer than that to get a simple drink drive blood sample back from the lab. I've been waiting months for a phone to be examined in a drugs case. It's tentatively promised for march. PC Hard drive examinations take even longer. Statements from the NHS take months. It doesn't help they've closed all the forensic labs (sshh! inconvenient truth).

So frontline Police is on the brink (I'd say it's already over the edge). For those who think it's bad now, you ain't seen nothing yet




anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
The public clamour for effective policing and effective criminal and civil justice but expect it all to be done for ten quid. Any police officer or lawyer who complains about cuts is accused of being interested only in their own wages and not the public good. As pointed out above, the actual savings to the public purse are relatively small, but the negative impact on the services, and therefore on the society they serve, are significant. I reckon that Cameron will get back in, so we have five more years of this.

Grayling is the most ignorant and dishonest man to preside over the justice system since, probably, Lord Thurlow or some other crook from centuries ago. I have lost count of how many times he has been found to be acting unlawfully, but he gives not a toss and neither, it appears, do many of the public.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 19th December 15:32

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Didn't they try a one week bail limit a few years ago? I'm sure I remember it. It was so blatantly and immediately unworkable that they changed it back.

Of course, Theresa May, with her knowledge of police enquiries is perfectly informed to tell us we don't need to keep people on bail for more than a month.
I guess then, when the month expires, we will just have to re-arrest when the new evidence (phone work, drug analysis) comes back? Meaning people are going to have 3/4/5 times the amount of arrests to their name than they do currently.

I'm lucky, in that I still love the job that I do. People have been telling me for years that this will change, and maybe it will.

It's just sad to see the fat cats with no knowledge or experience making decisions based on their personal opinions. Unfortunately they don't have the foresight to see what it's going to mean in the long run.

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Person arrested for rape and then released with no conditions because the forensics will take more than a month to come back.

The Daily Wail is going to have a field day at the Police's expense. Chairman of ACPO said yesterday that May hasn't even spoken to him in 18 months. Just mind boggling.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
Dibble said:
Title fail. It should be "28 Days" not "2 Days".
No, 2 days is the plan for next week in cloud cuckoo land.
Dibble said:
Teresa May is, frankly, a fantasist if she thinks enquiries can physically be completed in 28 days.
You got her forename wrong too.

The one you're referring to is in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niTmkLCBJO0

As this seems to be an anti cut thread you get the uncut version, but does include some siren and gratuitous Jag footage.

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Yup. And nasty domestics...sometimes the only safety the IP has, is that the DP has strict bail conditions. What will they have now? Nothing.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
So what would be a better bail limit?

Six months? There was a thread here about a chap walking down a street in Essex verbally abusing women and when one of them challenged him, he lured her in with a hug and punched her unconscious with one hit. He was caught up with but he could not be prosecuted due to the 6 month time limit.

So make it six months?

A couple of years ago an Inspector wanted to discuss some allegations made against me. They inadvertently confirmed it was a stitch up on the phone. It's been said here that those that make allegations have to substantiate them. Because I sussed their not so cunning plan they've not been in touch since and it took over a third of a year for my MP to get some implausible fairy tale letter out of the Chief Constable. Some offences have a one year time limit don't they? Odd that the Chief Constable's letter was dated exactly one month after that one year time limit. BiB play technicalities just as Theresa May did with her little European Arrest Warrant stunt.

I've bought that up as I think I may have some idea of what it's like to hang around on bail indefinitely. It's not very nice.

Edited by carinaman on Friday 19th December 16:14

Vaud

50,288 posts

154 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
There should be a limit. 28 days sounds too short. Indefinite is too long. So let's start at 6 months and enforce a bi-annual review of the law until we find the right balance?

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
We discussed this at work today - does this mean a charging decison has to be reached within 28days or can the prisoner Just be released from bail as soon as you know you wont be charge ready then have them back in for charge as and when you are ready or did we miss something.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
When PCC Vera Baird QC was on the Today programme discussing it didn't she say that taking people off of bail at 28 days doesn't mean that investigations can't continue in the background?

People can be 'de-arrested'. Surely letting someone off of bail while continuing the investigation is much the same?

'There's no smoke without fire'. I wonder how much bail could be misused to smear someone or tarnish them before they get to court?

I could do Jury service and a Judge could say 'forget all you've read in the Newspapers and on the Internet' but I am not sure I could. Call it a character defect.

Edited by carinaman on Friday 19th December 16:46

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Bigends said:
We discussed this at work today - does this mean a charging decison has to be reached within 28days or can the prisoner Just be released from bail as soon as you know you wont be charge ready then have them back in for charge as and when you are ready or did we miss something.
It means the 28 day limit on bail will only be extended in "exceptional circumstances" - and you will have to apply to the magistrates court to do so.

It shows just how short-sighted and ill-informed the politicos are. Many investigations are complex and will never be completed in 28 days. Many routine investigations take longer than 28 days for the reasons outlined previously.

This will also remove the "protection" some aggrieved parties get from bail conditions being imposed.

If this goes ahead it will mean more release no charge only to be further arrested in the light of fresh evidence - which suits no-one.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
So fewer officers chasing real crimes committed by real criminals while the automated persecution of 'motorists' continues unabated?

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
carinaman said:
Inane crap
I don't normally read anything you post. But is there any possibility we can one thread discussing serious issues that isn't demeaned and poisoned by your inane, ludicrous, pathetic rambling.



carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
I don't normally read anything you post. But is there any possibility we can one thread discussing serious issues that isn't demeaned and poisoned by your inane, ludicrous, pathetic rambling.
1. I suggested 6 months for bail.
2. I referenced what PCC & QC Vera Baird said.
3. I used my experience to explain how hanging around indefinitely on bail may not be a pleasant experience.

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
My mate was on bail for 6 weeks for a simple allegation of theft made by a disgruntled flat mate. The police must have known this was going nowhere.

Thankfully he didnt have to travel several miles to the station to answer bail as the copper was 'kind enough' to call him 2 hours before he was due to answer bail to tell him it was NFA.

I doubt the decision not to charge in a case of he said/she said, was only reached in the final 2 hours before he was due to answer bail.