Dogs fighting - decision time.

[so called]

We have made a big mistake in getting two male pups.
Firstly a 12 week old Huskey / Malamute cross and then a couple of weeks later a 12 week old English Bulldog.
Things were fine but then I made the first mistake.
From previous experience with Bulldogs, I bought George, the Bulldog, a scateboard.
All hell broke loose when the Huskey tried to play with it.
Since then there have been a number if fights. Both dogs have been snipped but that has not stopped the problem.
We have a professional trainer teaching us techniques to prevent the aggression but its now getting worse.
Ten days ago while I was in Germany with my Wife, the dogs had another set to, during which my daughter suffered quite a serious bite to her hand from George.
Today, they have had another do and George has ripped my leg open.
It has been George's aggression every time and it has now reached an unacceptable level.
Two visits to hospital inventory days.
My son and girlfriend over for Christmas with our first grandchild. This is totally not acceptable.
Sad to say George has to go.

[S800VXR]

That's quite a paring of dominant dogs there. Our EBD is soft as muck but completely un-submissive to any other dog which is fine so long as they don't try to be top dog.
Difficult decision but Better now before something serious happens.

[bexVN]

Unfortunately in this case it may not have been wise to get both neutered. It's complicated but sometimes it's better to leave the dominant male intact and neuter the beta dog who is trying it on. Restores balance. It's not black and white so you have my sympathy.

I will say you are going to poss struggle to rehoming a dog that's bitten people even if it has been triggered by dog/dog behaviour. It does suggest he is not inhibited at the thought of using aggression on people which is not good.

[so called]

S800VXR said:

That's quite a paring of dominant dogs there. Our EBD is soft as muck but completely un-submissive to any other dog which is fine so long as they don't try to be top dog.
Difficult decision but Better now before something serious happens.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.
We've had Two EBD's in the past, one of which was a wonderful and very powerful dog.
Unfortunately we had never experienced their behaviour with a second dog.
Our trainer is convinced that he will be able to train the problem out.

The mistake has been ours.

[KFC]

I work in dog rescue. This dog would be a serious candidate for being put down. Its going to be a nightmare to rehome legitimately.

[Chilli]

so called said:

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.
We've had Two EBD's in the past, one of which was a wonderful and very powerful dog.
Unfortunately we had never experienced their behaviour with a second dog.
Our trainer is convinced that he will be able to train the problem out.

The mistake has been ours.

Poor George. Get the trainer to work his magic then for payment at the conclusion of a passive George.

[King Herald]

KFC said:

I work in dog rescue. This dog would be a serious candidate for being put down. Its going to be a nightmare to rehome legitimately.

Our dogs fight on a regular basis, about once a week one will have a serious go at another one. Quite often it is the alpha -female who starts the fight, but the others have their moments. If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

I definitely don't do anything silly like try to pull them apart, or 'step between them' which is probably what you might read in doggie training books, but I guess some gentle folk would rather talk them down and be all politically correct about it.

We have five dogs and three bhes, some are here, one is the wife.



The mask and goggle are because we were doing some woodwork in the garage, not because the dogs are flea infested.

[lovechild]

In a domestic environment involving a couple of dogs I'm not sure that kicking the dog is the answer. I can see how a more animistic approach might be better suited in a pack of working dogs, but not here. I've seen the full spectrum of aggression between dogs and sometimes people can see a scuffle and think they're trying to kill each other, when in reality they are holding back. Saying that, any altercation is undesirable.

How old are the dogs? You say they're puppies, but mention serious bites and legs being ripped open. They're both stubborn breeds and Husky/Mals take a lot of looking after.

The skateboard started it. Can you identify the cause of the subsequent fights? Can you stop the fight, if so, how?

What advice did the professional give? If it's appropriate, are you following it consistently? These sort of issues are best dealt with by a decent behaviourist who can see the dogs personally. The basics will always apply though:
Avoid further confrontations at all cost, to try and break the behaviour.
Don't actively punish bad behaviour.
Positive reinforcement.
Don't push things too far and stop on a high note.

As a starting point, I would suggest taking all the toys up, feeding separately, giving affection separately and ignoring them. If they've got no toys/food/affection to fight over and you're giving them nothing, they may well bond by default as they'll only have each other. If they don't fight for a while then you start introducing stuff back in small controlled doses.

[ikarl]

King Herald said:

If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

Agree with this in the most.....my neighbour took a swing at her dog the other day because it went for another dog, it's not been away from her side since. Dogs need to know who's boss

[bexVN]

ikarl said:

King Herald said:

If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

Agree with this in the most.....my neighbour took a swing at her dog the other day because it went for another dog, it's not been away from her side since. Dogs need to know who's boss

A client kicked his dog in the guts trying to discipline it, ruptured the digs spleen and it died. It was a standard poodle and he was in no way a big man or raven an aggressive man, bad decision which killed his dog so forgive me if I am a bit wary of saying this is ok to do (unless dog out of control and no choice) I do believe in being strict when needed though.

[lovechild]

bexVN said:

ikarl said:

King Herald said:

If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

Agree with this in the most.....my neighbour took a swing at her dog the other day because it went for another dog, it's not been away from her side since. Dogs need to know who's boss

A client kicked his dog in the guts trying to discipline it, ruptured the digs spleen and it died. It was a standard poodle and he was in no way a big man or raven an aggressive man, bad decision which killed his dog so forgive me if I am a bit wary of saying this is ok to do (unless dog out of control and no choice) I do believe in being strict when needed though.

I agree with Karl's example. If a kick prevents the possibility of dog wardens/police/vets, then yes it is justified. That is a reaction to an unforeseen event. As a solution to ongoing aggression issues within a home, then no. I won't move out of my dogs way when we're walking and if they chose to cut in front of me, I don't break stride and they get a kick(more contact/push with my boot, rather than a kick). If they're in my way indoors, I tell them to move rather than me going round them etc.

I believe that one of mine came from a home where the owners thought that dominating a dog is the way to control it. He lacks confidence, is very sensitive to his surroundings and is all too willing to bite if he feels sufficiently ill at ease. He's a 42kg Mastiff X. Both the dogs mentioned in this thread are very powerful, so I'd be careful about using aggression to combat aggression. He might accept a kick from you, but what if a child is on a swing, playing football, marching around and the dog who gets regularly kicked sees a foot coming his way from a small person and thinks "I'm not having this off you"?

[so called]

The trainer is seeing and dealing with the dogs personnally along with teaching my daughter various techniques.
They are both approaching 12 months old.
The training has been going very well and controlled a number of issues.
The only cause now appears to be 'dog treats' which are banned, although my daughter thinks otherwise.
The treat that caused this last issue was from my sons dog, left in the garden after their visit.
I took the treat off him, hand in mouth, no problem. It then appeared that either he was simple really angry and attacked the Hus/Mal or thought that Hus/Mal had the treat.
Either way, my daughter was holding the H/M collar and I grabbed the bulldog collar and pulled him back.
Unfortunately I then lost my balance, face planted a window sill (big fat lip) and while still down the bulldog sank his teeth into the nearest target, my upper thigh.
Lesson learned, it will now be a big stick on fight night.

[MintSprint]

bexVN said:

ikarl said:

King Herald said:

If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

Agree with this in the most.....my neighbour took a swing at her dog the other day because it went for another dog, it's not been away from her side since. Dogs need to know who's boss

A client kicked his dog in the guts trying to discipline it, ruptured the digs spleen and it died. It was a standard poodle and he was in no way a big man or raven an aggressive man, bad decision which killed his dog so forgive me if I am a bit wary of saying this is ok to do (unless dog out of control and no choice) I do believe in being strict when needed though.

I was just about to say that I have found a sharp and hefty slap on the backside (no namby-pamby love tap, and followed by chasing the offender out of the house and giving them a good shouting at) to be equally effective and less risk of serious internal injury... then I read Bex' post.

But yes, in general I agree that it's sometimes necessary to firmly re-establish yourself at the top of the pecking order as the best way to terminate such disputes. Forget the PC brigade - they're dogs, not cuddly little humans, and it's sometimes necessary to relate to them as such.

[lovechild]

Ouch! Sounds nasty.

Sounds like you're going in the right direction and that you realise your daughter not following the rules was a big factor.

The amount of times I've said to people coming into my house "ignore the dogs".

Guest: *Talks to dogs*.
Me: "No. Can you ignore them please"?
Guest: "Sorry" *starts stroking dog*
Me: "FFS! Leave the dogs alone, pretend they're not there".
Guest: "Oh sorry".

Dogs can be hard work at the best of times, but when you're trying to remain consistent for training purposes(especially for aggression) it can be a right nightmare.

so called said:

Lesson learned, it will now be a big stick on fight night.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this but it sounds like the wrong attitude. Forgive me for being critical, but when dogs are given up due to issues it's someone else who then has to try and work with their problems or ultimately accompany them to the vets table. Again I speak from experience.

[KFC]

If it were me I'd be keeping the dogs separate whilst trying to rehome the bulldog to someone experienced. And obviously with full disclosure as to why it was being rehomed.

I just wouldn't ever be 100% confident it wasn't going to turn into another fight again and the mrs getting caught in the middle. And it only potentially gets worse as the dogs are going to be rapidly growing and getting stronger.

Did the bulldog come from a decent breeder who offer to take dogs back? Dumping it back where it came from may be the best of the relatively poor options available...

[pikeyboy]

My pointers and our bedlington have discussions regarding the seating arrangements in front of the wood burner. Sometimes our Bedlington gets pretty nasty but I've never felt the need to step in with a boot in the stomach. Usually I leave them to it provided they aren't drawing blood on the odd occasion I have a stern enough has sufficed and k9 harmony has been resumed.

I'm the first to say that your dog's need to know who the boss is and there is a little to much pussy footing around with positive reward but kicking dogs is big no no.

OP do the decent thing take the bullie to the vet for a one way trip as you'll never trust it despite what you might think.

[Jasandjules]

boy said:

OP do the decent thing take the bullie to the vet for a one way trip as you'll never trust it despite what you might think.

Why?

I've got a rescue boy, within about two weeks of owning him he'd attacked another dog and had nailed me on the arm (he panicked and I was in the way, my bad luck). Oh, it isn't a tiny little thing either but 9 stone. No chance he's going for a one way trip to the vet.

[so called]

lovechild said:

so called said:

Lesson learned, it will now be a big stick on fight night.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this but it sounds like the wrong attitude. Forgive me for being critical, but when dogs are given up due to issues it's someone else who then has to try and work with their problems or ultimately accompany them to the vets table. Again I speak from experience.

Yes, sorry, reads quite badly. What I was trying to say is that I will be following as advised above and won't be getting between them in future.
A hard slap doesn't really register with a bulldog. They tend to look over their shoulder at you with a 'what do you want' expression.

The sadness of the situation is that both dogs are very affectionate and a pleasure to be with when all's well.
The bulldog, without the dominance challenge from another dog, I'm sure would make someone a great companion, as with our previous bulldog.

The trainer is coming round in a few days for a chat.
As said, options are very limited.

[KFC]

so called said:

As said, options are very limited.

I still think your best one is to rehome him to a person with no other dogs. Or someone with other dogs but a lot of experience training him.

Not good for you as you're probably attached to him already but it'll be the best for him, and when it comes down to it thats all that matters

[King Herald]

bexVN said:

ikarl said:

King Herald said:

If they do kick off and I am there a swift kick to the guts usually wakes them up and reminds them who is really the boss.

Agree with this in the most.....my neighbour took a swing at her dog the other day because it went for another dog, it's not been away from her side since. Dogs need to know who's boss

A client kicked his dog in the guts trying to discipline it, ruptured the digs spleen and it died.....

Ahem, I'm not wearing steel toed miners boots when I do this, but usually flip flops or bare feet, as we live in the tropics. It is more likely to hurt me than the dog, hence the blow is moderated somewhat.