Advice needed - Sub - v- sub-alike

[Nigel_O]

Apologies for the lengthy post, but I'm in a quandary.... For many years, I aspired to a Tag Carrera, but then I found this forum.... The idea was shelved, and I carried on with my trusty daily Seiko 7T32 panda, my Skagen or occasionally my birth-year (1961) gold Smiths

Then, for some reason, despite many years of regarding Rolex as unattainable, I ventured onto a thread about Submariners and I found the watch I wanted - or at least I found the watch I really liked the look of - black 'no-date' Sub

Much more forum exploration yielded some alternatives - Steinhart Ocean 1 Vintage red, Longines Hydroconquest and even a Seiko or two

So - here's the dilemma - do I drop £5k on a new Sub, £4k - £4.5k on a s/h, or much less on a decent sub-alike? Here's my logic so far....

For the Sub

1) I'll be able to afford it in cash in March when some share options come up, or I could pounce now with a hefty deposit and some 0% finance if the right deal was spotted

2) If I bale out and get a Steinhart or Hydroconquest, will I constantly be thinking "it's still trying to look like the 'halo' model" - also, might I also be worried that others would look at an homage and think "couldn't afford the real thing then...."

3) There's little chance of me losing much money on it, so if I want / need to sell later, its going to be worth £4k+ all day long

4) I REALLY like the look of the Sub, and after trying it on yesterday, I'm starting to appreciate the "feel" of quality - compared with the stuff that's normally on my wrist, it was simply in another league - very satisfying to hold and touch


Against the Sub

1) It will be a daily wearer - is it really a good idea to wear a £5k watch all day, every day?

2) Even the Steinhart would be more money than I've ever spent on a watch before, so should I dip a toe in the water with a (very) reasonably priced watch that looks very similar before I go for the real thing?

3) My weekend car could do with a respray, and I probably won't be able to afford the Sub and the paint

4) 95% of the people I know wouldn't recognise probably wouldn't recognise a Rolex (in fact they probably wouldn't even know that the Steinhart or HC were decent watches and hadn't come from the Argos sale)

5) A quick poll of complete watch novices (Wifey and my two sons) with a side-by-side piccy of the Sub and the Steinhart resulted in indecision over which looked best - Rolex may just have come out on top, but it was a close-run thing

6) Despite being a Company director, I'm certainly not powerfully built and I was a little unsure about how the Sub would look on my skinny wrists. However, a quick visit to the local Rolex AD in Lichfield to try it on showed that it was just fine - probably the largest that wouldn't look silly on my wrists, but perfectly acceptable. It was listed at £5k at the dealers, and they very politely rebuked my enquiry about a discount - well, you have to try, don't you? Still, at least they had it in stock, which I'm led to believe isn't always the case - some websites even mention waiting lists.


My concern is that I'm considering a Rolex for the wrong reasons - yes, I know they are pretty much the pinnacle for the majority of people, but I find myself wondering if the ONLY reason I want it is because its aspirational, not because its an outstanding timepiece and a masterpiece of engineering. Even worse, I'm wondering if I (think) I want the Sub because others will think better of me. I really don't believe that to be the case, but I can't be sure. Have others gone through the same doubts when considering their first "proper" watch?

So - I'm turning to the PH collective for some wisdom - I simply want to be convinced in one direction or the other - if it turns out that I'm being daft and that a sub £1k watch is right for me, then I'll happily accept the advice (and I'll probably press the button on the Steinhart before the year is out). If it turns out that the respray can wait and I should join the hallowed ranks of Rolex owners, then the shares will be sold and the deed will be done in March.

[alfaman]

Long post indeed ...

Having read it ... Do u know if u really want a Rolex .. Or why u want it?

You sound a bit unsure.

First of all .. Don't buy a watch because of what u think other people think/ or to impress them.

Forget the 'status' arguments.

And the financials for a second.

Ask yourself : " will I get more enjoyment from a 4k+ Rolex ... Or spending the same on other things ( car, holidays , hobbies etc).... I assume from your post your funds are not unlimited .. So it IS an either or vs other items.

If u are rather unsure... Maybe wait a while .. Your urges may change

[Mr Aston Martin]

Buy for yourself.

Having cash tied up in a chattel is another aspect and only you can answer that if you need cash quickly for whatever reason.

That said life is too short not to enjoy a taste every now and again.


A previously enjoyed no date Sub at under £4k isn't exactly going to give you a cold bath on a forced sale back to Watchfinder.

[kazste]

I have a no date four line sub and love it, that being said and please dont take offence but it seems like this will be a significant purchase for yourself. With that in mind and the fact that your after a daily wearer I would suggest something's ng like the steinhart version or even something different. Yes you shouldnt lose much if you buy secondhand but if its a daily wearer that you need to keep nice in case you need to sell i would be too conscious of potential damage to really enjoy it.

Why not get something nice but different for a daily and then get the rolex for an evenings watch at a later point.

[geezerbutler]

Don't buy / wear a Rolex to impress others. Most people really don't notice what watch you're wearing, and if they do they will probably assume it's a fake. Buy it and wear it for your own enjoyment.

Also don't worry about wearing a Rolex every day. I regularly wear my old GMT to work. A Rolex is made to be used.

Personally, I can't see the point of homages.

[Dolf Stoppard]

As above really. Do you want a Sub and can you afford it? If the answer to both questions is yes then get one on your wrist as quickly as possible as they're not getting any cheaper. If once you've bought one you decide it's not for you or plans change and you need the money then moving it on will be easy.

As for wearing it every day - it's what it was designed for.

[kazste]

Not strictly correct though is it to say that it's designed to be worn everyday in this case.

Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.

[SVS]

kazste said:

I would suggest something's ng like the steinhart version or even something different. Yes you shouldnt lose much if you buy secondhand but if its a daily wearer that you need to keep nice in case you need to sell i would be too conscious of potential damage to really enjoy it.

+1. That's good advice from Kazste Far better to have a daily wearer you can enjoy without worry. Whereas if the Rolex gets badly damaged, it could cost a fortune to repair.

Also, you need to consider the 5-yearly cost of servicing a Rolex. Whilst it's not an annual cost, you need to be comfortable with Rolex servicing prices, which are only likely to increase over time.

I'd recommend getting either the Steinhart or a pre-loved Longines. (Resale values on Steinhart are good, should you change your mind, and Steinhart quality's good too.)

[38911]

I was in a similar position to OP earlier in the year.

I ended up buying a Christopher Ward sub-like watch.......... a great watch but I spent the next six months wishing I'd bought the real deal until I eventually gave in and bought a no-date sub 14060 2nd hand for £3400 (and sold the CW!)

I would recommend buying 2nd hand - as long as you buy sensibly (i.e. avoid the gold bracelet versions) from a trusted source and get all the papers, box, etc there's very little chance of losing any money and there's a buoyant market for used Rolex - so if you subsequently find out it's not for you, you can easily part company with it. Only downside is the older ones have very 'mediocre' quality bracelets especially if they have stretched a little.

[38911]

SVS said:

+1. That's good advice from Kazste Far better to have a daily wearer you can enjoy without worry. Whereas if the Rolex gets badly damaged, it could cost a fortune to repair.

Also, you need to consider the 5-yearly cost of servicing a Rolex. Whilst it's not an annual cost, you need to be comfortable with Rolex servicing prices, which are only likely to increase over time.

I'd recommend getting either the Steinhart or a pre-loved Longines. (Resale values on Steinhart are good, should you change your mind, and Steinhart quality's good too.)

Isn't that a bit like saying 'buy a Kia because a Mercedes might get scratched'.

Adding my Rolex to my home insurance policy (which covers me for theft and accidental damage) cost me less than a £10 a year increase in premium.

As for servicing every five years.... my Sub is 17 years old and has never been serviced. It runs perfectly and is accurate to <1s per day. This is not unusual - indeed the (off the record) advice from my friendly Rolex AD is not to bother with a service unless it begins losing accuracy or loses it's reserve. The old chestnut that not having them serviced causes expensive damage is invalid as a Rolex service includes replacement of those parts.

Honestly, if you buy smart you will lose far less on a Rolex than you will on almost any other watch.

[38911]

kazste said:

Not strictly correct though is it to say that it's designed to be worn everyday in this case.

Don't get me wrong I agree it's a tool watch, but if the plan is to not lose money should it need to be sold then you couldn't use it as a too, watch as its not a comex version and patina on a five year old sub is just classed as wear which will reduce the price you can sell it for fairly significantly. This is before you even think about potential damage caused by everyday wear.

Put it this way.

Spend £500 on a Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time you've got a worn out watch that nobody wants and is worth next to nothing.

Spend £3,500 on a used Rolex, wear it every day and in five years time send it to Rolex for a £300 service and it comes back looking like new and ready for another few decades of use.... and is almost certainly worth more than you paid for it.... and you've had the pleasure of wearing a Rolex instead of a copy.

[Nigel_O]

Thanks for the advice so far - I'm liking the balance between my choices - keep it coming....

To answer a few of the comments made so far:-

No, my funds are far from limitless - this would be a substantial purchase for me, but its certainly within my means.

I'm generally very good with watches - after around 20 years with the Seiko, I have a couple of very minor scratches to the glass and general lights scratches on the case - this is despite wearing it when working on the car or the house. TBH, I'd probably not risk damaging a Sub if I decided to buy - I would probably switch to the trusty Seiko when doing manual work. However, three of my four jobs are office-based, so risk would be minimal.

I AM convinced I want a nice watch, but I'm unconvinced that it has to be a Rolex, hence my self-doubt about my motivation

I've seen secondhand Subs down to less than £3.5k, but they appear not to have papers - from what I've read, its worth paying a bit extra for a watch with all the bits - box, papers, even the Rolex anchor

Will probably go and have a look at a couple of secondhand Subs in Birmingham tomorrow

[38911]

Nigel_O said:

Thanks for the advice so far - I'm liking the balance between my choices - keep it coming....

To answer a few of the comments made so far:-

No, my funds are far from limitless - this would be a substantial purchase for me, but its certainly within my means.

I'm generally very good with watches - after around 20 years with the Seiko, I have a couple of very minor scratches to the glass and general lights scratches on the case - this is despite wearing it when working on the car or the house. TBH, I'd probably not risk damaging a Sub if I decided to buy - I would probably switch to the trusty Seiko when doing manual work. However, three of my four jobs are office-based, so risk would be minimal.

I AM convinced I want a nice watch, but I'm unconvinced that it has to be a Rolex, hence my self-doubt about my motivation

I've seen secondhand Subs down to less than £3.5k, but they appear not to have papers - from what I've read, its worth paying a bit extra for a watch with all the bits - box, papers, even the Rolex anchor

Will probably go and have a look at a couple of secondhand Subs in Birmingham tomorrow

Yes, papers and box (both the display box and the cardboard outer box) are a 'must' - unless the watch is particularly cheap and from a reputable source, in which case you simply send it off to Rolex for a service and it comes back with service papers which is just as good. Boxes can be bought from eBay if needed - but I'd be dubious of anyone selling a Rolex without the box.

Subs (and probably most Rolex?) have the serial number stamped in the case but the bracelet has to be removed to see it - make sure you get the dealer to do this so you can check for yourself that it matches the papers.

You should comfortably be able to get a 'good to mint' no-date 14060 with boxes, papers, and a years guarantee for c.£3.5k. When I got mine a few months ago I was spoilt for choice. Don't let age put you off. I got mine from the Jewellery Quarter in Birmingham - there's a cluster of shops that sell Rolex just down the side street from the clock-tower roundabout. P K Jewellery has a good rep and he is quite cheap - but rarely has Subs in. There's also one shop down by the train station that has them.

[marcosgt]

Buy the watch you like.

I've got a Hydroconquest, but I wouldn't buy a Rolex Submariner personally.

Sure the HC has some similarities to a Sub (many, many watches do), but it's also got a lot of differences and being a 'tool watch', I know I'd worry about wearing a 5 grand watch whereas I never worry about the odd scratch or ding on the HC.

It's really not clear WHY you want a Rolex, but if you buy a Steinhart of Longines because you REALLY want a Rolex, you're bound to be disappointed every time you look at it.

I bought a Hydroconquest because it's one of my favourite looking watches at any price and I smile every time I look at it.

If a Steinhart or Longines can do that for you, what's a Rolex going to do more? Other than, it seems, make you worry you spent too much!

Only you can decide though. I bought a blue Seiko 5 thinking it'd alleviate my desire for an HC, it did, for about 2 days

M

[coldsnap]

Quite simply its a quality item, someone asked on TRF just recently what is so good about the Sub and really the list was very long, actually i suggest you join that forum and read up, you'll learn much.

Read up, search out, buy, wear and enjoy

[SVS]

alfaman said:

Ask yourself : " will I get more enjoyment from a 4k+ Rolex ... Or spending the same on other things ( car, holidays , hobbies etc)...

^ this is the key question Only the OP will know the answer in his own mind.

38911 said:

Spend £500 on a Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time you've got a worn out watch that nobody wants and is worth next to nothing.

Sorry, but that's wrong

Firstly, I wore a Steinhart Marine every day for a year. At the end of the year, it looked practically mint. I found Steinhart quality was fractionally better than Longines and a lot better than TAG Heuer. (Each of which I've owned at different times.) In short, my experience was that Steinhart quality was at least as good as many £1k watches from well-known Swiss brands.

Secondly, Steinharts hold their value quite well. Buy a £500 Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time it could be worth £250-300 (i.e. you'd have lost less than the cost of one Rolex service). I suspect Steinhart could be mid-transition from making homages to gaining a cult following in its own right.

Don't knock Steinhart unless you've owned one for a while. The key question isn't Steinhart's quality, but whether the OP would get more enjoyment from a 4k+ Rolex or spending the same on other things (car, holidays, hobbies, paying off the mortgage, etc).

[pikeyboy]

If you can afford it buy a sub you won't regret it. If you don't every time you check your watch you'll wish you had.

[DKL]

What about a Tudor sub? 2k buys a full set black version, date only. Same case, ETA movement and may be a "nice" watch, right name but not everyone knows. Those that do will know what it is if that matters.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Authentic-Tudor-Submariner-79090-Stainless-Steel-Original-Papers-Warranty-/281475916935?pt=UK_Jewelery_Watches_Watches_MensWatches_GL&hash=item418945a487

[Debaser]

If you like it, and can afford it, buy it.

[BrassMan]

38911][snip said:

Spend £500 on a Steinhart, wear it every day and in five years time you've got a worn out watch that nobody wants and is worth next to nothing.

Spend £3,500 on a used Rolex, wear it every day and in five years time send it to Rolex for a £300 service and it comes back looking like new and ready for another few decades of use.... and is almost certainly worth more than you paid for it.... and you've had the pleasure of wearing a Rolex instead of a copy.

And you're still down [some] hundred, but haven't been able to spend the up front difference on your weekend car or other expenses.

OP isn't watch obsessed, isn't planning on using it to store money and this is a big purchase.

[url-http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&f=187&t=1387841&mid=131122&i=0&nmt=A+new+angle+on+collecting+-+Steinhart+arrival&mid=131122]Yeti's[/url] take on Steinhart.