Another cyclist dies in London

[Digby]

walm said:

I would say when we have a hell of a lot more than just 10 cyclists dying each year in London.
I find that an astonishingly low figure - given my own anecdotal experience of cycle commuting and the sheer numbers involved now.

Your second point is a good one though.
And, ironically, I only have my experience to fall back on.
I usually found that when you drill down into what someone describes as "suicidal" it really isn't as bad as all that.
e.g. "blasting through a red light". I have seen plenty of that but literally not once have I seen someone do it such that a driver had to take avoiding action.
e.g. "undertaking" - no, that's "filtering"; perfectly legal and it is your responsibility as a driver to make sure you take it into account. Rule 211 in the HC.
Sure, I wouldn't filter past an HGV to the left but if the HGV is driving properly then there shouldn't be a problem if someone does.

Even your own comment makes an interesting example.
You have said "given them a wide berth" as if that is something special and out of the ordinary and oh-so-careful of drivers - as if it is a "wow - lucky I gave him a wide berth" moment that somehow "saved" a cyclist.

And that is 100% wrong and a huge part of the attitude problem.

YOU MUST GIVE THEM A WIDE BERTH.
That's the RULE.
It isn't the exception.
YOU are endangering THEM if you don't - not the other way round.

Rule 212: When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room.

"Seeing them" and "giving them a wide berth" is HOW YOU DRIVE PROPERLY.

Expecting cyclists to cycle around as if no one has seen them and as if they are going to pass an inch from their elbow otherwise labeling them "suicidal" is a terrible attitude IMHO.

In maybe 12,000 miles of London cycle commuting I only remember maybe a handful of emergency stops done by drivers to avoid cyclists. And 50% of them were SMIDSYs!

Everything you write tends to lean towards situations where traffic is moving at some pace and there is plenty of room - it's not like that in an HGV in the city.

My suggestions of suicidal cyclists are the types I keep mentioning who attempt to fit into gaps that should never, EVER be attempted.They apply to those riders who ignore me mid-turn.They apply to those who think we can all keep track of twenty or thirty of them on all sides at all times.They relate to those riders who have zero knowledge (or zero interest) as to the reasons behind the positioning of a large vehicle etc.

The vast majority of my 'emergency stops' are at ten mph or less and involve cyclists trying to pass me and not the other way round.You would only ever spot them if you happen to be behind the idiot trying to ride between myself and a bus as we are inches apart and are in the process of moving even closer due to traffic islands etc.As an example, I regularly have to pull in my drivers mirror to be able to make progress (even regular signs and traffic lights can force this action due to the height of a cab) and my passenger mirror is often being clipped by a bus.Those are the streets I find myself on regularly and those are the types of streets certain types of cyclists do not want to be held up on.

Giving cyclists room is not an option and keeping track of them all at all times is impossible.The sooner cyclists realise this, the better they will be as riders.

Edited by Digby on Thursday 23 July 21:36

[walm]

saaby93 said:

Another here claiming it's the safest place to be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlN4QyyXzF4
However to get there he's squeezing through a far narrower gap than he likes being overtaked

Seriously Saaby???

This is another utterly moronic statement oft perpetuated by drivers who can’t really think for themselves.

Can you really not see a fundamental difference between a car passing very close to a cyclist and a cyclist passing very close to a car???
Do you really think those are similar???
Nope. 100% no.

When it all goes wrong you have two scenarios:
1. A 100kg object being hit by something weighing well over a tonne.
2. An object well over a tonne being hit by something weighing 100kg.

You don’t need a degree in physics to understand that these two situations will have vastly different outcomes.
But I will help – conservation of momentum is a thing. Momentum is mass x velocity.
So when a cyclist is hit the magnitude will be say 10 (1000/100).
And when the cyclist hits the car it will be 0.1 (100/1000).
The difference in magnitude is therefore 100x.

I don’t want some muppet driving close past me because if either of us misjudge it, I will be knocked off the bike with tremendous force.
But when I pass a car – worst case he gets a small scratch or dent.

The level of empathy and understanding on this entire thread is just depressing.

[saaby93]

walm said:

Seriously Saaby???
snippety snip
The level of empathy and understanding on this entire thread is just depressing.

You missed the point
His squeezing manoeuvre passed off safely - as will most of these
and he'll claim he knows what he's doing
Many other cyclists who may not be able to drive or have an understanding of what could be dangerous about it, see what he and others are doing, see it's all fine and think they can do the same
We saw the video of the ones sneaking up the inside of the truck with the left indicator.
Other people are sneaking past safely, it must be fine, or is it.

The traffic starts moving again and theyre not in the safest position either behind or in front.
They've ended up in the squeeze position.
That's whats dangerous about it.
Only sometimes though - and thats the catch.
It's like a mousetrap with some cheese.
Many times the mouse will be able to nick the cheese and the trap doesnt go off
Sometimes it does

[walm]

I agree with all those points and I think you have a good one regarding ASLs encouraging cyclists to filter when they shouldn't.

(That's why I only responded to the part of your post I disagreed with!)

Digby makes an excellent point too about the 10mph emergency stops and how difficult it is to see 30 nutters surrounding him at every junction.

When I did cycle training - we were strongly encouraged to think about filtering on the RIGHT not the left for these very reasons.
Sure you run the risk of a U-turning or right-turning vehicle you don't see (similar to typical motorcyclist collisions) but even that is preferable to getting left hooked by an HGV.

[GC8]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-341126...

A somewhat positive post and hopefully these adaptions will make lorry/cyclist collisions survivable.

Tippers are technically dual purpose vehicles and their use off-road precluded the fitting of side bars, but I think that this is well overdue on the vehicles currently used in the city.

[saaby93]

GC8 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-341126...

A somewhat positive post and hopefully these adaptions will make lorry/cyclist collisions survivable.

Tippers are technically dual purpose vehicles and their use off-road precluded the fitting of side bars, but I think that this is well overdue on the vehicles currently used in the city.

I know it's only a proportion but lets hope it doesnt encourage more cyclists to think its safe to squeeze up the inside.

[Mr GrimNasty]

Mirrors might help a bit, but a driver can't watch them all at once especially when swarming cyclists can appear in the blink of an eye, and those side bars will make SFA difference, if cyclists continue to put themselves in suicidal positions they will continue to get crushed and killed. It's about time the law was changed to make cyclists accept responsibility for their own riding when around HGVs especially.

[jbsportstech]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Mirrors might help a bit, but a driver can't watch them all at once especially when swarming cyclists can appear in the blink of an eye, and those side bars will make SFA difference, if cyclists continue to put themselves in suicidal positions they will continue to get crushed and killed. It's about time the law was changed to make cyclists accept responsibility for their own riding when around HGVs especially.

I agree I never commit myself up the inside of lorry be it car or bike

[okgo]

Said it before, I'll say it again, there are times when its perfectly fine to do so. I went up the inside of many lorries today, last night, yesterday morning, the night before etc etc etc.

Sadly you cannot teach judgement to people.

[GC8]

okgo said:

Said it before, I'll say it again, there are times when its perfectly fine to do so. I went up the inside of many lorries today, last night, yesterday morning, the night before etc etc etc.

Sadly you cannot teach judgement to people.

Said it before, I'll say it again, there are times when you will survive doing so.

Sadly you cannot tell some people.


The difference between us is that I can drive a lorry, whereas you have probably never even sat in one.

[jbsportstech]

GC8 said:

Said it before, I'll say it again, there are times when you will survive doing so.

Sadly you cannot tell some people.


The difference between us is that I can drive a lorry, whereas you have probably never even sat in one.

Its a mindset thing and the problem I have with a lot of bikers and cyclist as progression and progress become key factors and safety and being courteous go out the window.

It amazes me the positions some riders will put themselves in to save a second or two. I would rather not die or get injured on a bike and save the hassle of having my car damage and time hassle of accident claim.


No doubt the same cyclist who commit themselves up the inside of a lorry if they were driving a car and in took them inside of roundabout on two wheels to save a second or two would think I was mad.

[anonymous-user]

Not a death, but a pretty horrific and life changing injury....driver arrested....left hook maybe?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/female-cycli...

[budgie smuggler]

djstevec said:

Not a death, but a pretty horrific and life changing injury....driver arrested....left hook maybe?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/female-cycli...

Sounds like it

[WinstonWolf]

Women generally cycle too close to the kerb, my missus is a bugger for it no matter how often I tell her to move out

[Laurel Green]

I always click with trepidation when this thread pops up.

[robinessex]

Sadly, is this another case of a cyclist unwuisely going up the inside of a lorry. Lorries don't exactly move quickly, so if you keep away from them, you should be ok

[okgo]

robinessex said:

Sadly, is this another case of a cyclist unwuisely going up the inside of a lorry. Lorries don't exactly move quickly, so if you keep away from them, you should be ok

You were there and saw her do that did you?

[okgo]

To be blunt, until you've ridden a bike in central London you won't fully appreciate the situation people are often found in due to all sorts of circumstances.

[robinessex]

okgo said:

robinessex said:

Sadly, is this another case of a cyclist unwuisely going up the inside of a lorry. Lorries don't exactly move quickly, so if you keep away from them, you should be ok

You were there and saw her do that did you?

If you want to comment on a posting, THE READ THE BLOODY THING CORRECTLY BEFORE DOING SO. The second word in my posting was 'is'. A question ?

[TheInternet]

robinessex said:

If you want to comment on a posting, THE READ THE BLOODY THING CORRECTLY BEFORE DOING SO. The second word in my posting was 'is'. A question ?

I suspect he was misled by your poor English.