Automatic Identification System (AIS) on small boats
Discussion
Myself and my father are currently in the (slow) process of refurbishing a 21 foot sailing boat, and as the existing electronics are ancient I am taking the opportunity to start from scratch.
We could fit a VHF with AIS, or fit a standalone AIS system, but I wondered how much use it would actually be on such a small boat?
The boat will be sailed in coastal waters in the North West of Scotland, so really not a lot of other sea traffic - hardly congested, and most of the local yachts and small fishing boats I doubt will have AIS themselves. Fishfarm supply vessels, local RN auxiliaries, large posh yachts on holiday from the Clyde and further afield I guess would have it.
Question for those who have used AIS on smaller boats is whether it is worth fitting?
It is more for curiosity and having another interesting gadget to look at rather than having any practical need for it that I thought I might want to install it.
If it is likely to show too much information (clutter?), not enough (few large boats in the area fitted with it, or not work very well on a small boat (small mast/mizzen mounting height) I may not bother.
We could fit a VHF with AIS, or fit a standalone AIS system, but I wondered how much use it would actually be on such a small boat?
The boat will be sailed in coastal waters in the North West of Scotland, so really not a lot of other sea traffic - hardly congested, and most of the local yachts and small fishing boats I doubt will have AIS themselves. Fishfarm supply vessels, local RN auxiliaries, large posh yachts on holiday from the Clyde and further afield I guess would have it.
Question for those who have used AIS on smaller boats is whether it is worth fitting?
It is more for curiosity and having another interesting gadget to look at rather than having any practical need for it that I thought I might want to install it.
If it is likely to show too much information (clutter?), not enough (few large boats in the area fitted with it, or not work very well on a small boat (small mast/mizzen mounting height) I may not bother.
telford_mike said:
If you have a suitable phone or tablet, download one of the free AIS apps and give it a try before you part with your hard-earned. Personally I wouldn't bother, but the way things are going it'll probably be mandatory for anything bigger than a Mirror dinghy in a year or two.
I've used these apps on land, but presumably a proper marine display provides different information though?s2kjock said:
telford_mike said:
If you have a suitable phone or tablet, download one of the free AIS apps and give it a try before you part with your hard-earned. Personally I wouldn't bother, but the way things are going it'll probably be mandatory for anything bigger than a Mirror dinghy in a year or two.
I've used these apps on land, but presumably a proper marine display provides different information though?As for on board integrated with your GPS and DSC set they are a great tool but again you will likely turn off the collison alarms as they will drive you up the wall in a busy stretch of water. Useful when the fog comes down but with good visibility you should be able see anything that is going to hit you rather than rely on the possibility that it is carrying a transponder in the first place!
And if you want to be seen then obviously you need a transponder set not just as most are, a receiver.
Having seen a huge amount of small yachts and fishing boats on the Crouch fitting it, and in many cases leaving it live at berth, it has got to the point where my nav screens are full of useless clutter, false alarms etc and I have to turn it off to be able to use it for it's primary objective. Bear in mind that is with an 10" plotter, any smaller and the problem will be worse still.
For the same reasons I don't use the radar in close quarters unless Vis has gone altogether.
So for me a useful bit of kit when crossing the Thames Estuary or English Channel, otherwise a bit of a burden.
MOTORVATOR said:
Having seen a huge amount of small yachts and fishing boats on the Crouch fitting it, and in many cases leaving it live at berth, it has got to the point where my nav screens are full of useless clutter, false alarms etc and I have to turn it off to be able to use it for it's primary objective. Bear in mind that is with an 10" plotter, any smaller and the problem will be worse still.
For the same reasons I don't use the radar in close quarters unless Vis has gone altogether.
So for me a useful bit of kit when crossing the Thames Estuary or English Channel, otherwise a bit of a burden.
Sounds like it would only be useful in very limited circumstances ultimately then - closest I would come to Thames Estuary or English Channel is crossing the Minch which is no on the current cruising plan. Don't get so much fog up here either.For the same reasons I don't use the radar in close quarters unless Vis has gone altogether.
So for me a useful bit of kit when crossing the Thames Estuary or English Channel, otherwise a bit of a burden.
Interesting about the inaccuracy of mobile apps - I wouldn't plan to use it mobile anyway (poor coverage for a start).
The Standard Horizon combined AIS and VHF I have looked at, but think I'll give it a miss now - plenty other gadgets to look into ................
I was thinking of getting the box to plug in to the plotter (Raymarine 12" jobby) on the basis it would be really useful at night for longer passages.
Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
"Obviously" you would be getting DSC VHF? Not sure I've seen a boat with just VHF for 5yrs now?
I don't see much point in AIS unless you need the fast identification and contact facilities it offers.
I'd save the money and get a good DSC VHF and buy a decent EPIRB for the boat, less fun type of gadget but much more useful if needed!
I don't see much point in AIS unless you need the fast identification and contact facilities it offers.
I'd save the money and get a good DSC VHF and buy a decent EPIRB for the boat, less fun type of gadget but much more useful if needed!
maser_spyder said:
I was thinking of getting the box to plug in to the plotter (Raymarine 12" jobby) on the basis it would be really useful at night for longer passages.
Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
It's a long time since I wired an AIS receiver in (to a Raymarine plotter), but it wasn't that complicated to do. I used a splitter for the VHF aerial, and the connection into the SeaTalk network wasn't hard to do.Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
That said, as Motorvator pointed out, whether the AIS plots are any use depends on where you are. It's f all use in the Solent, where the things that might hit you won't have AIS transponders. And the proximity alarm will be going off all the time because of ferry and other commercial traffic.
Where it does come into it's own though is on a passage across the channel at night or in reduced visibility. I much preferred AIS to radar - a radar plot takes some skill to interpret - and the radar itself will hammer the batteries if you are sailing. The AIS box I had didn't draw much juice at all from what I remember.
Riff Raff said:
maser_spyder said:
I was thinking of getting the box to plug in to the plotter (Raymarine 12" jobby) on the basis it would be really useful at night for longer passages.
Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
It's a long time since I wired an AIS receiver in (to a Raymarine plotter), but it wasn't that complicated to do. I used a splitter for the VHF aerial, and the connection into the SeaTalk network wasn't hard to do.Then I looked in to the wiring, etc. and realised it's a bit of a nightmare, I'd have to splice in to the vhf wiring (or set up a second antenna), then run the cable from the box to the raymarine network wiring, none of which is in the same place on the boat. Anyway, more faff than it was worth so didn't bother (yet).
If I'm planning on doing long-ish distances overnight again, I might think about it, but for day sailing and pottering about, the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly well enough.
That said, as Motorvator pointed out, whether the AIS plots are any use depends on where you are. It's f all use in the Solent, where the things that might hit you won't have AIS transponders. And the proximity alarm will be going off all the time because of ferry and other commercial traffic.
Where it does come into it's own though is on a passage across the channel at night or in reduced visibility. I much preferred AIS to radar - a radar plot takes some skill to interpret - and the radar itself will hammer the batteries if you are sailing. The AIS box I had didn't draw much juice at all from what I remember.
VHF splitter box - £100 - hmm, still ok, just
Seatalk Ng cable from VHF to helm, 10m - £80 - sod that.
The annoying thing is, the old Seatalk AIS box had a VHF splitter built in so it was easy to wire up, but the new Seatalk Ng one doesn't have the splitter and also requires the expensive backbone cable as well.
I might do it in a year or two (will keep an eye on eBay for the cable), but over £500 for the odd night passage just didn't seem worth it.
Maser if you want to do it just go for a new DSC/AIS VHF. No transponder but will do it all with one seatalk connection. DSC has never really been used to it's capability but an emergency signal from that along with any others in your address list will come up on any plotters so enabled.
s
t I sound like one of the plane geeks now.
s
t I sound like one of the plane geeks now. MOTORVATOR said:
Maser if you want to do it just go for a new DSC/AIS VHF. No transponder but will do it all with one seatalk connection. DSC has never really been used to it's capability but an emergency signal from that along with any others in your address list will come up on any plotters so enabled.
st I sound like one of the plane geeks now.
I'd still need the backbone cable to get to the helm though, that was the killer (threading it through the boat as well as the cost). I'd have to go out the back of the main panel, through the back wall of the heads/shower, through the aft cabin and then to the helm, a right old pain of a job.s
t I sound like one of the plane geeks now. I've got a DSC VHF that talks to course computer via NMEA2000, course computer talks to chartplotter via seatalk (old), only the plotter has the new Seatalk Ng wiring on it (with an adapter to link it to the older Seatalk instruments).
What I should probably do is update the other instruments (course computer, wind, speed, depth, pilot) to new Seatalk Ng and add the new AIS at the same time. Big old expense though, for what's essentially just nicer displays.
If there had been an easy to add AIS I would have definitely bought one last year, but the complexity of mixing old and new Raymarine stuff killed it.
I spent my pennies on wifi instead, so now have a super low power 3G router coupled with local SIM cards, much more useful!
I've never been sure that secondary surveillance (Mode S IFF/ AIS /etc) don't lie like cheap watches at times of greatest need. It's primary radar and skin paints all the way for me, battery use and all. Yes, it does take a bit of effort to understand the picture and how to control the clutter so you don't see every pot buoy within the horizon (unless you want to), but you can use radar to see weather systems and coastlines as well as the other traffic - it's much better when this can be overlaid on a chart plot. (Yes, I'm a biassed radar geek) Not saying I wouldn't fit some kind of AIS kit mainly for the sake of interest, but it would be a long way down the priority list. That said, I've not been "proper" sailing with the family for a few years - I somehow don't think Grey Funnel cruises count... 
Jock, I would get one if you can afford it. I work as a VTS operator and the more ships that have AIS, the easier it makes our job of informing traffic in our area that ship A, B and C are in such and such a position and can be avoided or other. You will be more visible to other ships that monitor AIS rather than relying on radar detection alone. HTH.
CarbonXKR said:
Jock, I would get one if you can afford it. I work as a VTS operator and the more ships that have AIS, the easier it makes our job of informing traffic in our area that ship A, B and C are in such and such a position and can be avoided or other. You will be more visible to other ships that monitor AIS rather than relying on radar detection alone. HTH.
I would probably just go for a receiver though - transponders are a good bit more than I want to spend, although I can see how important it could become.From the big ship perspective, a 21 foot sailing boat is bloody difficult to spot with sails down with any sea running, and depending on visibility bloody difficult to spot with sails up so anything that makes you more conspicuous is a good thing. Generally a small yacht is inconspicuous on radar.
Also the AIS will display your position- so an aid to navigation and potentially an aid to your location if you ever require assistance. Class B AIS is aimed at sailing yachts etc, so it can be turned off electronic chart overlays in congested waters. Think Cowes week and the like.
Think of this as "what can it to for others to help them see me", as well as any other considerations you make.
Also the AIS will display your position- so an aid to navigation and potentially an aid to your location if you ever require assistance. Class B AIS is aimed at sailing yachts etc, so it can be turned off electronic chart overlays in congested waters. Think Cowes week and the like.
Think of this as "what can it to for others to help them see me", as well as any other considerations you make.
MOTORVATOR said:
wildcat45 said:
What's DSC please?
An integral part of GDMSS. Combined with EPIRBs, Inmarsat, Navtex, SART, LRIT it all helps with SOLAS.Digital Selective Calling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Selective_Cal...
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff