Heel'n toe in a 997 GT3 RS

[evodarren]

Heel and toe 997 GT3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqYeusE8ksk

[Steve Rance]

Generally single seat drivers tend to use the technique where both brake and peddle are operated by the ball of the foot - like the in car with Ayrton Senna. This technique lends itself to the small and narrow pedal boxes typical of single seaters. It's pretty instinctive. When I raced GT cars i found that the typically wider peddle layouts lent themselves to the pivot technique that the OP uses currently. It is effective but requires a lot of brake pressure to create a stable and adjustable platform for the heal on the throttle. In normal road driving conditions it can therefore be a little clumsy - especially if the throttle is positioned relatively low when compared to the brake. Having driven the 997.2 in anger many times on the circuit, I found that the peddle layout still suited the pivot technique but in moderate - ie road driving - it didn't.

To be honest, I rarely heal and toe on the road but if I were so inclined and owned a 997.2, Id be having the throttle peddle adapted.

[LaSource]

Thanks Steve. Interesting points ref race car application.

I notice the earlier posted video was teaching the side of foot method for the 997

To be honest HnT is not really a big need on the road...perhaps only on a spirited country drive or approaching a tasty roundabout just allows you to practice a bit. Plus on a 996 it not a conscious effort anyway.

It's really on the track where it was a problem. I've only had one outing on track in a 997 and I couldn't get the hang on the day. I also had a 996 with me that day so did not spent enough seat time in the 997 to learn.

I am getting the impression that the 997 will need track levels of harder braking to facilitate the manoeuvre.

[Dr S]

Steve Rance said:

Generally single seat drivers tend to use the technique where both brake and peddle are operated by the ball of the foot - like the in car with Ayrton Senna. This technique lends itself to the small and narrow pedal boxes typical of single seaters. It's pretty instinctive. When I raced GT cars i found that the typically wider peddle layouts lent themselves to the pivot technique that the OP uses currently. It is effective but requires a lot of brake pressure to create a stable and adjustable platform for the heal on the throttle. In normal road driving conditions it can therefore be a little clumsy - especially if the throttle is positioned relatively low when compared to the brake. Having driven the 997.2 in anger many times on the circuit, I found that the peddle layout still suited the pivot technique but in moderate - ie road driving - it didn't.

To be honest, I rarely heal and toe on the road but if I were so inclined and owned a 997.2, Id be having the throttle peddle adapted.

+1. The issue with the 7.2 on the road is that you are rarely using sufficient break pedal pressure to align pedal positions sufficiently for comfortable pivot technique.

[paua]

This thread & video demonstration of technique is becoming interesting. My understanding has always been that I must combine double de-clutching with hnt. With the exception of Hr Roerhl, the videos are only of hnt WITHOUT double pumping the clutch, which doesn't really synchronize engine & gear speed. What benefit is there blipping the throttle with the clutch pedal depressed/disengaged?
I learned to drive (39 hp Anglia 105, no syncro in first) by double de-clutching & then, later, rev-matching without the clutch at all, so don't really totally understand what senna & Hayward are demonstrating by blipping with the clutch pedal on the floor.
In road driving, I don't really ever brake hard enough to properly hnt, however , I always double de-clutch downshifts.Can someone more experienced enlighten me.
Cheers - David

[V8KSN]

paua said:

This thread & video demonstration of technique is becoming interesting. My understanding has always been that I must combine double de-clutching with hnt. With the exception of Hr Roerhl, the videos are only of hnt WITHOUT double pumping the clutch, which doesn't really synchronize engine & gear speed. What benefit is there blipping the throttle with the clutch pedal depressed/disengaged?
I learned to drive (39 hp Anglia 105, no syncro in first) by double de-clutching & then, later, rev-matching without the clutch at all, so don't really totally understand what senna & Hayward are demonstrating by blipping with the clutch pedal on the floor.
In road driving, I don't really ever brake hard enough to properly hnt, however , I always double de-clutch downshifts.Can someone more experienced enlighten me.
Cheers - David

The reason they blip the throttle is to match the different rotating speeds of the engine and the gearbox before releasing the clutch.

The engine and gearbox will spin at the same speed when the clutch is engaged, as soon as you depress the clutch the engine and gearbox will rotate at different speeds, the point of revving the engine is to match the speeds as close as possible before re-engaging the clutch.

[BertBert]

so the synchros are doing their thing to match the speed of the engaging sprockets (which takes little effort), but the driven wheels do not have to accelerate the engine up to the right speed which takes a lot of effort and will likely cause the wheels to lock if the breaking is at max.

Also in practice there is some clutch drag so even with the clutch down the "blip" speeds up the input side of the gearbox making the change smoother.

Bert
(we are definitely turning into the AD forum where is this discussed ad naseum - allegedly)

[Steve Rance]

This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea

http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po

[FER4L]

Interesting - I've heard other people say that the 997.2 was trickier to heel and toe

Apparently they've pretty well fixed that particular problem on the new model though

[ShakMan]

Steve Rance said:

This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea

http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po

Nice Video. Steve, I notice you were left foot braking while still accelerating .... how does this help ? To reduce understeer ?

Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ?

Thanks.

[Steve Rance]

Thank you. It was an endurance race so full tanks. Just trying to settle the car through surfees. Instinctive 'feel' driving. Later when I could actually be bothered to learn how to drive the car properly - and not like an utter tart - I changed my technique.

I actually got the qualifying record that weekend - Christ knows how.

[LaSource]

Steve Rance said:

This is how I HT in a GT car. Please do not view this film as 'how to drive a 911' - it isnt. Lots of things that I would do now. Early days for me in a 911. I watch this now and cringe a little. Never the less, an idea of how I HT. May work for you, may not - but its an idea

http://youtu.be/6pguj0ED9Po

Nice clip.
I use a similar approach currently - though at less than half your foot speed plus I think my timing is a bit off - ie too much gap in between blip and clutch engage.
http://youtu.be/fVcRi7ZlDA0

When I tried it on a 997, the throttle pedal was not there
Will also try braking harder next time.

[Jimmy Riviera]

Looks like Steve R is driving 996 cup car in his vid. Pedal set up as others mentioned is quite different between 996 and 997 RS variants. Personally I struggle with HnT in 997 and only way I've found to get anywhere near approaching smooth HnT and not actually making things worse than if I hadn't bothered at all, was to use the side of the foot method and even then, need to be putting a decent amount of pressure on to the brakes i.e. you're moving on a bit!

996 in contrast seems to be set up sublimely for HnT using the foot rotation technique as Steve's video shows.

Found some 997 RS thread a while ago on Rennlist asking the same question and more often than not the guys over there were changing the pedal set up by fitting something like Rennlines kit.

Cheers.

[Slippydiff]

LaSource said:

Nice clip.
I use a similar approach currently - though at less than half your foot speed plus I think my timing is a bit off - ie too much gap in between blip and clutch engage.
http://youtu.be/fVcRi7ZlDA0

Not sure if it is the case (could be the camera angle) but the sideways load your blipping action generates looks to be physcially deflecting the throttle pedal sideways rather than downwards, hence the "lag" you alluded to.

I've always used the "other" method, very much keeping the ball of my foot on the brake and rolling /tipping my foot onto the throttle (it means you need to articulate your foot in a different manner, but also requires less movement of your foot and ankle)

I noted your comments about not using H & T on the road. If you've got a manual road car, I suggest you do it on the road, all the time, it will help you to finesse the procedure.

My daily driver has been a slushbox for the past 15 years now, but I use H & T in ANY manual that I get behind the wheel of, good pedal layout or not, diesel, petrol, van, you name it, I always H & T.



'Gis a go in your '6 RS and I'll show you how I do it ........

[Slippydiff]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Evening JL, you well ? Nice road trip last week ?
The audio on my PC is worse than sh*t, so didn't get the full effect, but noticed the throttle pedal loading looked awkward (so much so that I nipped out to the garage to see where my foot is positioned on the brake pedal, and how I blip the throttle)

T'aint nothing like the OP's. My shoe is positioned so its right hand half is on the brake pedal (ie not central on it) I then roll my ankle sideways across and downwards to blip the throttle (similar to Rohrl in the Quattro video, though the camera angle isn't great in that video)

[Slippydiff]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Indeed I do



Size 8 clodhoppers (and yes, I do tend to position the ball of my foot as close to the edge of the brake pedal as that .....)

All good here thanks J. Croc bonding complete then ? ?

[Blukoo]

I have size 15s, so it's never normally an issue for me.

Fitting them in the footwell is the normal issue haha.

[Slippydiff]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Excellent news !! When will modding commence ?

Blukoo said:

I have size 15s, so it's never normally an issue for me.

Fitting them in the footwell is the normal issue haha.

I guess you can combine brake and throttle actuation simultaneously with ease !! You'll never need to learn the art of left foot brake with those "canal boats" on your feet ??? !!!

[LaSource]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I seem to recall making you an offer to come check it out. Offer still stands - once it gets a bit warmer!

[Trev450]

ShakMan said:

Is it also true that the electronics in the 997 prevent you from using the brake and accelerator at the same time ?

It certainly does in a 987 so I can't see the 997 being any different. One way to find out ..............