The war on NOx and diesel...
Discussion
Interesting episode of Dispatches tonight which once again raised the issue of the effects of diesel particulates and NOx. A Labour party spokesman held his hands up and admitted that the introduction of the current VED system was a complete balls up as was telling everyone to buy diesel, both of which have contributed to significantly worse air quality in towns and cities. The issue of global warming or lack thereof depending on your viewpoint seems to be taking a back seat, being replaced by increasing concerns over the health effects caused by reduced air quality. And as most of you will know, Boris last year announced his plans to create an Ultra Low Emissions Zone in London whereby diesel cars in particular will face excess charges to drive in the city; the same idea has been proposed in other EU cities. With the diesel car and NOx emissions seemingly in the firing line, are we close to seeing a complete overhaul of the VED banding system the likes of which we saw under Labour? Are diesel cars soon to be taxed off the road just as many large engine petrol cars were?
Can they do it before the end of February , my £475 bill is due for the impreza .
I knew it was all BS to get people to buy cars, they couldn't care less about the environment, it's all about moving money around
People were stupid enough to fall for it, sell your 30mpg petrol car and buy a 60mpg diesel that actually does 50mpg, oh and diesels 8p a litre more and there's a premium on the cdiesel version, but you're saving £4 a week in road tax
I knew it was all BS to get people to buy cars, they couldn't care less about the environment, it's all about moving money around
People were stupid enough to fall for it, sell your 30mpg petrol car and buy a 60mpg diesel that actually does 50mpg, oh and diesels 8p a litre more and there's a premium on the cdiesel version, but you're saving £4 a week in road tax
Thanks for thatclowesy said:
which have contributed to significantly worse air quality in towns and cities.
Other than the fact air quality hasn't actually got worse! Air quality has improved year on year for the last 25 years, due to a reduction in heavy industry and ever cleaner cars! The reason some of our towns are occasionally failing some of the EU air quality directives is that in 2012 the limits were halved.........Don't believe everything one sees on the haunted fishtank 
. NOx emissions are by far a worse issue on motorways than in town (particulates are generally the opposite ) due to diesels' lean running and also their resultant higher combustion temps on cruising rather than round town - but don't let the facts get in the way of a good (London is polluted by NOx) story 
...
Said "news" reminds me of the name of a German synthpop band who sang "Duel" - it was the theme tune to Top Gear's coverage of the Lombard RAC Rally for a few years .
But there's no doubt that diesels will get clobbered pretty soon in terms of VED, to this observer's jaded eye
. If we weren't such a crowded country, with so many people travelling on so (relatively) few roads (compared to France or Germany, for example) to so (relatively) few destinations located so (relatively) close together... We'd 'pass' the NOx levels dictated by the EU with no trouble at all!
. NOx emissions are by far a worse issue on motorways than in town (particulates are generally the opposite ) due to diesels' lean running and also their resultant higher combustion temps on cruising rather than round town - but don't let the facts get in the way of a good (London is polluted by NOx) story ...Said "news" reminds me of the name of a German synthpop band who sang "Duel" - it was the theme tune to Top Gear's coverage of the Lombard RAC Rally for a few years
.But there's no doubt that diesels will get clobbered pretty soon in terms of VED, to this observer's jaded eye
. If we weren't such a crowded country, with so many people travelling on so (relatively) few roads (compared to France or Germany, for example) to so (relatively) few destinations located so (relatively) close together... We'd 'pass' the NOx levels dictated by the EU with no trouble at all!Max_Torque said:
Other than the fact air quality hasn't actually got worse! Air quality has improved year on year for the last 25 years, due to a reduction in heavy industry and ever cleaner cars! The reason some of our towns are occasionally failing some of the EU air quality directives is that in 2012 the limits were halved.........
Don't try and ruin a good scaremongering with factsyou'll only come out painted as the crazy conspiracy theorist
matt5791 said:
I think the diesel engine is very adaptable, and manufacturers will respond with solutions.
I think Diesel engines are already being pushed beyond their limits in terms of economy and pollution. You're constantly hearing about DPF failures, EGR valve failures, turbo failures, DMF failures, etc etc.
The reason I stuck with petrol was because of all the horror stories I hear on these forums. Diesels make a lot of sense for company car drivers, short term PCP deals and long distance driving. But for my own personal car, that I plan to keep for many years, then no thanks.
The Turbonator said:
I think Diesel engines are already being pushed beyond their limits in terms of economy and pollution.
You're constantly hearing about DPF failures, EGR valve failures, turbo failures, DMF failures, etc etc.
The reason I stuck with petrol was because of all the horror stories I hear on these forums. Diesels make a lot of sense for company car drivers, short term PCP deals and long distance driving. But for my own personal car, that I plan to keep for many years, then no thanks.
Agreed.Working on them every day lets you see how much has been added to bring emissions down. The engine bay is filled with pipes,sensors,valves and wiring as well as what you listed above. Fuel of Satan, and that's before the horrible stench and acidic eye watering fumes that come out the back of an idling Diesel nowadays, what the hell is that?You're constantly hearing about DPF failures, EGR valve failures, turbo failures, DMF failures, etc etc.
The reason I stuck with petrol was because of all the horror stories I hear on these forums. Diesels make a lot of sense for company car drivers, short term PCP deals and long distance driving. But for my own personal car, that I plan to keep for many years, then no thanks.
Max_Torque said:
Other than the fact air quality hasn't actually got worse! Air quality has improved year on year for the last 25 years, due to a reduction in heavy industry and ever cleaner cars!
I suppose it's a case of how you measure air quality. NO2 levels have increased at the roadside in inner London between 1995 and 2010, same with our motorways. Everywhere else it has decreased but the talk is of creating Ultra Low Emission cities. NOx is the buzz word this time just as CO2 has been for the last 20 years and the real purpose of this topic was to highlight the glaring similarities between what's being said now and what was said just before the introduction of the current VED banding system and war on petrol was declared. Max_Torque said:
Other than the fact air quality hasn't actually got worse! Air quality has improved year on year for the last 25 years, due to a reduction in heavy industry and ever cleaner cars! The reason some of our towns are occasionally failing some of the EU air quality directives is that in 2012 the limits were halved.........
Exactly. This is what I can't understand, especially speaking as someone who grew up when there were no diesel cars, no unleaded petrol and everyone had a coal fire.When, in the past, was the air quality better? What set of emissions regulations did we have that gave us cleaner air than we have now? I mean, it just simply isn't true.
I believe what we do have now are (young?) people who are less able to resist infection, and there seems to be a growth in the numbers of allergies that people suffer from, compared to the past.
tiffx19 said:
Agreed.Working on them every day lets you see how much has been added to bring emissions down. The engine bay is filled with pipes,sensors,valves and wiring as well as what you listed above. Fuel of Satan, and that's before the horrible stench and acidic eye watering fumes that come out the back of an idling Diesel nowadays, what the hell is that?
I agree with this. Again, speaking as somebody who, on and off, has spent time in workshops with large diesel engines since the 1970's, diesels never used to produce the acrid fumes that they do now. I mean, you can't run even a diesel smart car now without exhaust extraction, and this never used to be the case.Perhaps there were better emissions targets in the past.
tiffx19 said:
Fuel of Satan, and that's before the horrible stench and acidic eye watering fumes that come out the back of an idling Diesel nowadays, what the hell is that?
If I remember correctly I think it's uric acid (piss) used to lower NOx under the guise of AdBlue or done such nonsense. Will try and look it up at some point.Correction: It's not just uric acid but actual urea and deionised water see here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_flui...
clowesy said:
Interesting episode of Dispatches tonight which once again raised the issue of the effects of diesel particulates and NOx. A Labour party spokesman held his hands up and admitted that the introduction of the current VED system was a complete balls up as was telling everyone to buy diesel, both of which have contributed to significantly worse air quality in towns and cities. The issue of global warming or lack thereof depending on your viewpoint seems to be taking a back seat, being replaced by increasing concerns over the health effects caused by reduced air quality. And as most of you will know, Boris last year announced his plans to create an Ultra Low Emissions Zone in London whereby diesel cars in particular will face excess charges to drive in the city; the same idea has been proposed in other EU cities. With the diesel car and NOx emissions seemingly in the firing line, are we close to seeing a complete overhaul of the VED banding system the likes of which we saw under Labour? Are diesel cars soon to be taxed off the road just as many large engine petrol cars were?
What I found interesting about the chappie who willingly put his hands up and said they were wrong but back in the late 90s they had no evidence to hand was that he was willingly and knowingly lying. By the late 80s we had vast amounts of data that proved that it was both the monoxides from car exhaust that were the most dangerous and toxic pollutants in British urban air. And that it was particulates from diesel that were lethal delivery mechanisms to the lungs.
There were enormous studies carried out through the late 80s and into the 90s over this subject.
An additional study that I worked on back then was related to the impact of cloud cover and that without sufficient sunlight the enormous emissions of monoxides from the morning commute were unable to oxidise sufficiently to reduce the hazard. That particular piece of research was a study to find the safest time to go jogging in a city.
Everyone remembers the jogging craze of the 80s and the media soundbites that going for a run in a city was the equivalent of smoking 20 cigarettes a day.
Everyone also remembers catalytic converters arriving in the early 90s.
Everyone in London remembers the lobbying to prevent taxis and buses bellowing out plumes of smoke.
The toxicity of particulates and monoxides has been known and very well documented for decades. The problems of Diesel engines has been known for as long.
The more logical reason for Blair's cabinet and advisors favouring diesel cars over petrol is that they all had find memories from their activist youth of being w
ked off in the back of their social Peugeots by requisite Soviet men. Or, it may have been that CO2 (harmless to humans in the urban environment) was a better taxation mechanism. Either of those, probably. I've driven petrol lorries and coaches
Dpf technology is a joke , and it's amazing how much better , and how much more economical an engine is when it's removed and sure the fumes smell more "dieselly" but far less obnoxious as previously mentioned
No doubt the manufacturers will come up with another sticking plaster fix to keep diesels around a bit longer
Dpf technology is a joke , and it's amazing how much better , and how much more economical an engine is when it's removed and sure the fumes smell more "dieselly" but far less obnoxious as previously mentioned
No doubt the manufacturers will come up with another sticking plaster fix to keep diesels around a bit longer
liner33 said:
No doubt the manufacturers will come up with another sticking plaster fix to keep diesels around a bit longer
I have heard a couple of times "Fords" solution is to stop producing them in a couple of years time. If i find anything official i may bob it up
Maybe we could appease the greenies by the reinvention of the pedal car
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