We have no money
Discussion
cardigankid said:
What I don't believe is what you are saying.
If you are talking about events of this magnitude you should speak carefully and accurately. The 'Final Solution' was planned at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Murder Squads were sent behind the armies invading Russia in 1941. Police units were not sent into Poland in 1939 to commit atrocities.
Really? If you are talking about events of this magnitude you should speak carefully and accurately. The 'Final Solution' was planned at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. Murder Squads were sent behind the armies invading Russia in 1941. Police units were not sent into Poland in 1939 to commit atrocities.
4th September 1939, Czestochowa, Poland. 1,140 Polish civilians murdered. In the first three months of war, from the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940, some 60,000 former government officials, military officers in reserve, landowners, clergy, and members of the Polish intelligentsia were executed region by region in the so-called Intelligenzaktion, including over 1,000 POWs.
Nope doesn't sound like organised murder at all! Idiot.
Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 28th January 07:17
cardigankid said:
The Nazi leadership went to great lengths to conceal what was happening from the mass of the German people. Not only do I think that they were unaware of what was happening, that they believed that they were involved in a war which was not of Germany's making, imho they themselves subsequently became the victims of brutality of an equally horrific nature. It may reasonably be argued that their suffering was not on the same scale but I do not feel that suffering can be balanced in this way. It is all ghastly and who is entitled to feel superior about it?
Is this more sympathising with German self-pitying victimhood?. I thought we had enough of that after WW1 (which led to the failure to confront Hitler until it was too late)Only a fraction of what had been done on the Eastern Front was visited on Germany. That fact can be seen in German Civilian casualties of the war.
Rather than pretending such atrocities could be carried out by any people it is worthy remembering that most have not. We have to return to the German national character in the early twentieth century. The culture of militarism as a result of warrior Prussia having taken over the rest of Germany. The belief in racial superiority over the Slavs to the east due to relative levels of economic development. The belief in following orders regardless of the consequences. A level of barbarity unusual in European civilisation which was seen in WW1 long before the rise of Nazism (atrocities on civilians were exaggerated by allied propaganda but did indeed take place, thousands of Belgian civilians were murdered and what had the Belgians ever done to Germany?)
Rovinghawk said:
I was in Auschwitz on Friday. I saw two tonnes of human hair shaved from the victims and the cloth made from it. I stood inside the gas chamber. I saw the zyclon-B canisters. I heard in minute detail what went on there and saw every part of the camps.
It's possible; it happened.
To my simple mind, denying it is the same as condoning it. If you condone any of this then you are worthy of contempt.
the enormity of the horror of what happened is something that has always stopped me visiting auschwitz ,i cannot imagine how seeing that must make a person feel. It's possible; it happened.
To my simple mind, denying it is the same as condoning it. If you condone any of this then you are worthy of contempt.
This is a good book on the German psyche in WW2
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-2027...
It rather gives the lie to the idea that the ordinary Germans knew nothing about what was happening to the Jews or would have stopped it if they had. Plenty of evidence there of the participation of "ordinary" Germans in atrocities, even against their own people.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-2027...
It rather gives the lie to the idea that the ordinary Germans knew nothing about what was happening to the Jews or would have stopped it if they had. Plenty of evidence there of the participation of "ordinary" Germans in atrocities, even against their own people.
dandarez said:
'We' have no money is correct.
But 'they' do, they have lots of it, and boy, do they squander it in our name.
YUPBut 'they' do, they have lots of it, and boy, do they squander it in our name.
http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/
z4RRSchris99 said:
for £50m I will go round every school in the country and educate the little chaps about the terrors of ww2.
I think that would be a much better idea, traveling schools exhibition type thing
At the events that I attend during the Summer many volunteers/re-en-actors/educationalists offer an insight into the WW2 past. But not the industrialised murder committed by Nazi's which, even if it were possible, nobody would want to attempt. Nazi uniforms are not permitted unless as a staged capture acting scenario. At one particular event a re-enactor sets up a field hospital, always next to my own display of past times, the field hospital is accurate and complete. Hundreds of visitors, including kiddies take great interest in the events.I think that would be a much better idea, traveling schools exhibition type thing
I do agree that education, as was mentioned at the start of this debate by another poster, is required during schooling.
wc98 said:
the enormity of the horror of what happened is something that has always stopped me visiting auschwitz ,i cannot imagine how seeing that must make a person feel.
I wondered about the inmate 'overseers' who got better conditions for helping the system. Would I have been part of it to escape the punishments? I didn't like the fact that I wasn't sure.Rovinghawk said:
wc98 said:
the enormity of the horror of what happened is something that has always stopped me visiting auschwitz ,i cannot imagine how seeing that must make a person feel.
I wondered about the inmate 'overseers' who got better conditions for helping the system. Would I have been part of it to escape the punishments? I didn't like the fact that I wasn't sure.crankedup said:
Rovinghawk said:
wc98 said:
the enormity of the horror of what happened is something that has always stopped me visiting auschwitz ,i cannot imagine how seeing that must make a person feel.
I wondered about the inmate 'overseers' who got better conditions for helping the system. Would I have been part of it to escape the punishments? I didn't like the fact that I wasn't sure.Bluebarge said:
This is a good book on the German psyche in WW2
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-2027...
It rather gives the lie to the idea that the ordinary Germans knew nothing about what was happening to the Jews or would have stopped it if they had. Plenty of evidence there of the participation of "ordinary" Germans in atrocities, even against their own people.
Milgram's book covered this a long time ago. There is nothing unique about this mentality to any particular group. All one needs are the right conditions and motivations.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-2027...
It rather gives the lie to the idea that the ordinary Germans knew nothing about what was happening to the Jews or would have stopped it if they had. Plenty of evidence there of the participation of "ordinary" Germans in atrocities, even against their own people.
That said, I do think there were plenty of Germans who did not realize just how bad it all was, or turned a blind eye because they did not want to know. Today we've got drone strikes and cuban torture chambers, but the propaganda tells us everything is being done under rule of law, or for our safety at the least. Not a 1:1 situation, but the mentality is the same -- it is a problem of the human condition.
scherzkeks said:
Milgram's book covered this a long time ago. There is nothing unique about this mentality to any particular group. All one needs are the right conditions and motivations.
I have nothing against modern Germans who seem a decent bunch of people who have faced up to their past, but comments like these are incorrect IMO.First of all this separation of "Nazis" and "Germans" as if the Nazis were invaders from Mars.
Secondly the fact that all cultures would be willing to conduct such slaughter in the twentieth century, or indeed in earlier supposedly less "civilised times", under similar conditions and motivations.
The Americans suffered a similar depth of depression to the Germans and somehow managed to get through it without starting wars and slaughtering minorities.
To look at the causes you must first look at the German national character in the early twentieth century and THEN look at the stresses it was put under. From defeat (in a war they started) to hyperinflation to depression.
scherzkeks said:
Milgram's book covered this a long time ago. There is nothing unique about this mentality to any particular group. All one needs are the right conditions and motivations.
That said, I do think there were plenty of Germans who did not realize just how bad it all was, or turned a blind eye because they did not want to know. Today we've got drone strikes and cuban torture chambers, but the propaganda tells us everything is being done under rule of law, or for our safety at the least. Not a 1:1 situation, but the mentality is the same -- it is a problem of the human condition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84924572&...That said, I do think there were plenty of Germans who did not realize just how bad it all was, or turned a blind eye because they did not want to know. Today we've got drone strikes and cuban torture chambers, but the propaganda tells us everything is being done under rule of law, or for our safety at the least. Not a 1:1 situation, but the mentality is the same -- it is a problem of the human condition.
What is really amazing is what people will do when there is no implicit or direct threat to them, just a conditioning to do as we are told by someone in authority.
JagLover said:
I have nothing against modern Germans who seem a decent bunch of people who have faced up to their past, but comments like these are incorrect IMO.
First of all this separation of "Nazis" and "Germans" as if the Nazis were invaders from Mars.
No one said they came out of nowhere, which is about as realistic as the claim that it's in their blood.First of all this separation of "Nazis" and "Germans" as if the Nazis were invaders from Mars.
JagLover said:
The Americans suffered a similar depth of depression to the Germans and somehow managed to get through it without starting wars and slaughtering minorities.
We will never know, as there was no Hitler in America (though he had lots of support, and, personally, I'd avoid talking about how Americans have never "slaughtered minorities" as a general rule). However, if we look a bit further down the road, the depravity of American forces in Vietnam (My Lai is the tip of a rather large iceberg) and in modern wars like Iraq show a completely different side. Particularly disturbing is the type of nationalism and associated violence-drenched stupidity that has sprung up since 9/11. America has always been a violent culture, but the last few decades have unleashed some pretty dark forces. But, I don't think my countrymen are that way by nature; it's a result of conditioning. Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 29th January 08:54
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Its in the national syllabus - my 6 year old has just been taught about WW1, and I believe history is a compulsory syllabus from age 13-14 so he should have been taught about it then. Maybe he was bunking off and as a result failed to learn important knowledge?I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
B.J.W said:
My friend's future son-in-law is 21. A ordinary, state educated lad who is able to hold an intelligent conversation.
I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
So he had never seen or heard of 'Saving Private Ryan' and many others? Remembrance day? Never wondered why we wear a poppy each year? I find it impossible to believe he had never heard of WW2. I suspect he was on a wind up.I was speaking to him about the Battle of Britain. He didn't know what the Battle of Britain was. Further discussion revealed that he didn't know that World War 2 had even happened! I asked why. The reply, they didn't teach us about it at school. Despite the increased access we have to information (internet etc.) I don't think his experience is unusual.
Lotus 50 said:
A crankedup says interesting stuff and I need to read up more. Put in very simplistic terms it seems to me that it started by Hitler grasping the opportunity to take power by playing on the population's willingness to place blame for the economic situation that Germany was in at the time on a minority group/groups and by being willing to push back on/break the Treaty of Versailles...
It would never happen today would it?....Right wing asshats blaming the economic situation on minority immigrant groups? No, wait - I take that back - there's plenty of right wing asshats trying to pull the same trick today. Edited by Lotus 50 on Tuesday 27th January 19:27
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