Been sold some lies and dreams

[JustinP1]

Escy said:

I'll try and sort something out with him directly. I'm being more than fair asking for half the money.

If I do go to the small claims court, what's my best plan of action for the engine? Sell it as standard, then claim the difference between it being standard and the £2250 I sold the dream engine for?

You've got to prove the loss.

To be honest, the realities of the County Court system is that you will need to fork out £100 in fees, more again if defended, hours of paperwork to get a judgment.

If he doesn't reply judgment in maybe 6 weeks. If he does, 5 months.

Then you have to enforce it. £75 to upgrade to High Court enforcement. However, if they can't find the guy, and there's no stuff to take, or he stops them getting in, then they come back to you empty handed. Only option then is bankruptcy, at a cost of £700.

As you can see, a long road.

If it were me, I'd be asking for the £1000 difference by talking to him personally, in decent sized instalments. With the veiled threat that you know full well it's fraud. That way if you get £500 of your £1000 you can write off the difference.

[JustinP1]

swerni said:

You purchased a car for £1000 with an engine that had a £3700 rebuild and knew you could sell the engine alone at over £2000.

Were alarm bells not ringing at any stage?

Autotrader is full of cheap cars that an enthusiast has chucked thousands at being sold for half the money they spent...

[Busa mav]

Escy said:

I bought a car in July 2014 on ebay. My brother picked it up for me and ran it for 6 months. I've only just got my hands on it now. It was a Toyota Celica 190, the car was a complete dog but the engine had been re-built, I planned on breaking it

My son has a perfectly good 54 plate T190 sat on the drive here, apart from a blown engine. You could cut your losses by buying this for a song and transplanting your " race engine "

[Escy]

swerni said:

You purchased a car for £1000 with an engine that had a £3700 rebuild and knew you could sell the engine alone at over £2000.

Were alarm bells not ringing at any stage?

I didn't purchase the car for £1000. I won the auction for £1750. The car was worth £750 with a standard engine (recently bought a far better condition 190 for £750). So I overpaid by 1k based purely on that invoice. It just so happens that the difference in value between a fancy pants engine and a standard one is probably 1k, maybe a little more.

The way the auction was listed was like he's basically selling an engine with the car thrown in so it's not like the invoice played an insignificant part.

I've found a advert still active on another website. It's just not on to make an advert like this based on complete fabrication. Even things like the AEM induction kit turned out to be a Chinese knock off.

http://www.swapz.co.uk/swapz/4629597/Toyota_Celica...

This is off the Torquay Herald website

NAME OF THE PERSON WHO SOLD THE CAR, Orchid Vale, Kingsteignton. Breached a community order imposed for fraud. Plea: Denies. Convicted Date: 30/05/2013. Original offence details: On 06/12/2011 at Dartmouth made a false representation that was lawfully in possession of and entitled to present for cash a cheque for £200 drawn on a Nat West Bank account in the name of another. Committed to prison for 84 days suspended for 18 months. Reason for custody: persistent and willful refusal to comply with community penalty, fraud committed over three month period. Be under a curfew for three months.

NAME OF THE PERSON WHO SOLD THE CAR, Orchid Vale, Kingsteignton. Age: 25. On 06/12/2011 at Dartmouth committed fraud in that dishonestly made a false representation, that were lawfully in possession of and entitled to present for cash a cheque for £200 drawn on a Nat West Bank account in the name of another. Plea: Guilty. On 26/01/2012 at Dartmouth committed fraud in that were lawfully in possession of and entitled to present for cash a cheque for £460 in the name of another. Plea: Guilty. On 08/02/2012 at Dartmouth committed fraud by false representation, namely were lawfully in possession of an entitled to present a cheque for £495. Plea: Guilty. Between 01/01/2011 and 07/12/2011 at Dartmouth stole a cheque, of a value unknown, belonging to another. Plea: Guilty. Between 01/01/2011 and 27/01/2012 at Dartmouth stole a cheque, of a value unknown, belonging to another. Plea: Guilty. Between 01/01/2011 and 09/02/2012 at Dartmouth stole a cheque, of a value unknown, belonging to another. Plea: Guilty. Community order made. Carry out unpaid work for 100 hours within the next 12 months.


NAME OF THE PERSON WHO SOLD THE CAR,Rowcroft Road, Paignton. Age: 25. On 06/12/2011 at Dartmouth committed fraud in that dishonestly made a false representation, namely wrote a cheque out to himself intending to make a gain, namely £200. Plus five related offences. Adjourned to 23/11/2012.

Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 14:54

[Escy]

If he had a suspended sentence last time, surely this one (for more money) will see him in the chokey this time around?

Just spoken to an ex employer (not the garage that built the engine). He recently left the company and is working for himself (making carbon fibre parts). He's probably not declaring it so will be treated as unemployed if I go through the courts.

Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 15:03

[defblade]

Escy said:

He recently left the company and is working for himself (making carbon fibre parts). He's probably not declaring it so will be treated as unemployed if I go through the courts.

Ha! Tell him you'll set HRMC on to him, that should scare him more then Small Claims or the police

[KFC]

Escy said:

Just spoken to an ex employer (not the garage that built the engine). He recently left the company and is working for himself (making carbon fibre parts). He's probably not declaring it so will be treated as unemployed if I go through the courts.

That would be an extremely dangerous tactic that could spectacularly backfire. If he's already got form for a few similar scams, being in full time employment now could be the difference between him going to prison or not. If I was in his shoes I certainly wouldn't want to hide the fact I was employed.

[Escy]

The garage on the invoice gave me his new employers details. I rang them and they told me he'd recently left.

[johnao]

Escy said:

Makes me wonder if that side of it is more of a police matter rather than small claims?

I bought the car on the strength of an invoice which has turned out to be fraudulent.

Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 11:43

It's a criminal offence of False Accounting, Theft Act 1968, section 17.

17 False accounting.

(1)Where a person dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another,—

(a)destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose; or

(b)in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such record or document as aforesaid, which to his knowledge is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular;

he shall, on conviction on indictment, be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years.
(2)For purposes of this section a person who makes or concurs in making in an account or other document an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular, or who omits or concurs in omitting a material particular from an account or other document, is to be treated as falsifying the account or document.

[Escy]

I've been doing some more digging, the guy is well known on a few forums as a con man. Think i'll do everyone a favour and tell the police. Used to trade under the name of reworx styling

[TomJS]

Report to the police first IMO. If found guilty, this conviction can then be introduced in a civil claim which will make your going considerably easier.

See here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/64

[9mm]

The first step is to quantify exactly what you want.

[Escy]

I want the difference between what I sold the engine for in his advertised spec (£2250) and what I get for it as a standard engine (sub 1k, probably around £750)

I was going to ask if I a small claims case at the same time as the police case so thanks for clearing that up.

I'm pretty sure i'll get no money off him, even if I win the case. He seems to have been scamming people all his life, there is a trail of disaster everywhere he's been.

[9mm]

Obviously the Police don't compensate you so they can only help with retribution. Small claims is only going to cost you a token amount and even if he doesn't pay it will inconvenience him to some extent. My advice would be not to underestimate the amount of preparation you might need to do to prepare your case. Submitting the claim online is easy and quick but if it gets to a hearing you'll have work to do. I think both parties are invited to go for independent arbitration prior to any hearing now so that will be another opportunity to settle. Good luck.

[andygo]

A bloke I knew was in the business of running a rally team some years ago. He sold a Gp A Escort Cosworth to some guys in Poland and as part of the deal delivered it to them over there.

They buyer insisted he took him to lunch after paying for the car. After lunch, the buyers mechanics, who had spent the intervening time stripping the car down found it was a Gp N car, running lots of standard parts.

The bloke I knew received a lot of boot/head interfacing from the purchasers team and the return of his car in kit form. Oh, and the buyer got a full cash refund on the spot.

That's the way to do it, lol.

[TheAllSeeingPie]

Escy said:

I sold the engine with the spec it supposedly was on ebay for £2250 (which i've cancelled) so I can prove the value of it.

If I read this right: You created an eBay ad for the engine, let it run it's listing and the poor person on the other end who bid and won has had it cancelled so you could "prove the value"? If so you've been a complete knob to someone not involved in this mess.

[Escy]

You're reading it wrong. I didn't know the engine was standard when I initially sold it.

[Escy]

andygo said:

boot/head interfacing

It's an option i've considered and not yet ruled out.

[22Rgt]

Its six months ago and youve only just inspected the car? The only way youre going to be able to prove all this to a court is take the engine bits with you in a wheel barrow and hold up each piece to the judge.Expect there to be total disinterest and boredom after the crank/ pistons/oil pump/cams ect have been passed around the bench and everyones hands are an oily mess..

Edited by 22Rgt on Sunday 1st February 19:38

[Escy]

Surely all I'll need is the false invoice and a testimony from the garage that it's fraudulent. They did help him rebuild the engine (measured it up for clearances) so they know what was done to it.

I'm speaking to him via watsapp and he's not disputed the fact it's standard. I don't think i'll have any issues with that side of the claim.