Been sold some lies and dreams
Discussion
Escy said:
I bought the car on the strength of an invoice which has turned out to be fraudulent.
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Putting aside all the likely difficulties of getting much satisfaction from / out of this guy.....[/footnote]
Didn't your brother buy it and isn't he the one who will be making any claim?
Did he see the advert? Did he see the invoice?
Why didn't he do anything in the first 6 months?
Will he be hoping to rely on all the communications you've had with the seller?
22Rgt said:
Its six months ago and youve only just inspected the car? The only way youre going to be able to prove all this to a court is take the engine bits with you in a wheel barrow and hold up each piece to the judge.Expect there to be total disinterest and boredom after the crank/ pistons/oil pump/cams ect have been passed around the bench and everyones hands are an oily mess..
Indeed.Edited by 22Rgt on Sunday 1st February 19:38
The last few times I've been to county court, the waiting room is full of people with wheelbarrows. Luckily at the larger courts, they've installed conveyor belts so that disassembled disputed items can come in front of the Judge's desk 'Generation Game' style with a cuddly toy at the end.
It's frustrating for all. Imagine the hassle of deciding the negligence in a car-park bump when a series of bent panels and broken parts need to go under the judges nose. And a boundary dispute where a fence has gone over the desk, panel by panel!
Luckily, back in the real world, the OP will never have to do what you've suggested, and if he did, at best he would get reprimanded by the Judge and go in a book of 'stupid things done in court'.
The way it actually works is the claim puts the details in writing. This gives the defendant the opportunity to deny anything put to him. If he does not deny it, then he is deemed to have accepted it.
In any case, the Judge makes a call on 'the balance of probabilities' from the evidence presented to him. For example, if he deems the OP a credible witness, and the defendant who is a convicted fraud, and has already admitted another fraudulent act a non-credible witness, this would normally be enough. However, to add to that, if there was any doubt, photographs and statements from an independent mechanic and the OP's brother would also be accepted.
The Judge will have absolutely no interest in looking at individual oily parts - don't worry OP.
I didn't fully explain the situation as I didn't think it mattered. I saw the car on ebay, spoke to the scam artist owner, he told me all the cock and bull about the engine and the invoices he had to back it up. I won the auction (I planned to break it for parts). At the time I didn't really have the space for it anyway and my brother had just sold a car and needed another. I agreed with my brother that he'd buy it, use it and i'd have it off him for the same price when he'd finished with it.
The problem is, my brother (and dad who went along) went to buy it and they are a bit naive. I expected invoices for the parts as well as one from the garage so when I saw his fake invoice I was worried, it didn't look great. The thing is, the engine has been out, has been painted up and looks the part. He removed a spark plug and you can see the pistons are shiny and the compression was really high so he assumed it was what he said. Plus there are photos of it on the garage's Facebook page so it all kind of added up.
That time has come where i've had it off him. I've started breaking it and have found the truth. I owe my brother £1750 for a car i'll be lucky to get 1k back on. I'm sorting everything out (contacting the garage, trying to negotiate money off him, posting this thread for some opinions, etc) as I have responsibility for it and as it's in my garage, it's my problem. He'll need to do all the paperwork and put the claim in as the car is in his name.
The problem is, my brother (and dad who went along) went to buy it and they are a bit naive. I expected invoices for the parts as well as one from the garage so when I saw his fake invoice I was worried, it didn't look great. The thing is, the engine has been out, has been painted up and looks the part. He removed a spark plug and you can see the pistons are shiny and the compression was really high so he assumed it was what he said. Plus there are photos of it on the garage's Facebook page so it all kind of added up.
That time has come where i've had it off him. I've started breaking it and have found the truth. I owe my brother £1750 for a car i'll be lucky to get 1k back on. I'm sorting everything out (contacting the garage, trying to negotiate money off him, posting this thread for some opinions, etc) as I have responsibility for it and as it's in my garage, it's my problem. He'll need to do all the paperwork and put the claim in as the car is in his name.
pork911 said:
I'm not having a pop but what's that got to do with your brother buying the car? the reasons you wanted it and what you thought it was are irrelevant
There's a few ways to interpret the transaction, but in fact, the fact that his brother was involved at all is irrelevant and makes the situation more complex.The long ant the short of it is, the seller advertised a car with a whizz-bang modified engine with parts X, Y and Z.
The OP bid on an auction on that basis, and won the car. Now, on closer inspection, the car does not have parts X, Y and Z which in effect make up the majority of the value of the car.
It transpires that not only has the seller knowingly mis-described the car, he created false documents, including an invoice from his old workplace to suggest parts X, Y and Z had been installed by them.
So, in effect, the seller has defrauded the OP of approximately £1000 or more by adding value to the vehicle on the basis that parts X, Y and Z were installed.
If it were me, I'd hold the leverage that I *could* go to the police and let the guy pay my money back. Personally, I wouldn't hold out much sway that a CCJ would/could be enforced, even after the time and cost were expended.
from what OP has posted I imagined the difficulties enforcing a CCJ were a given
OP's brother obtaining a CCJ in the first place seems very problematic, hence my questions on this page
blackmail aside
the leverage of threatening to go to the police seems his only realistic option (this far down the line)
OP's brother obtaining a CCJ in the first place seems very problematic, hence my questions on this page
blackmail aside
the leverage of threatening to go to the police seems his only realistic option (this far down the line) There has. I asked him for £500 back or I'd go to the police. He agreed but it took ages, finally had the last of it yesterday. £500 means i'll break even on the car. I have sold the engine for £750 (previously sold it for £2250 as the lie spec) so i've effectively lost £1500 (£1000 after his £500 back). I think i cut him a good deal really as i'd over paid for the car by more than £500 but if i'd tried him for more money i'd have probably got nothing. It turns out there is a long list of people who've been ripped off by him so anything back is a result.
I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
Escy said:
There has. I asked him for £500 back or I'd go to the police. He agreed but it took ages, finally had the last of it yesterday. £500 means i'll break even on the car. I have sold the engine for £750 (previously sold it for £2250 as the lie spec) so i've effectively lost £1500 (£1000 after his £500 back). I think i cut him a good deal really as i'd over paid for the car by more than £500 but if i'd tried him for more money i'd have probably got nothing. It turns out there is a long list of people who've been ripped off by him so anything back is a result.
I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
Too much advice on this forum tells you to move on. If it were me I'd pursue it. People can't get away with this kind of stuff. I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
Taz1383 said:
Escy said:
There has. I asked him for £500 back or I'd go to the police. He agreed but it took ages, finally had the last of it yesterday. £500 means i'll break even on the car. I have sold the engine for £750 (previously sold it for £2250 as the lie spec) so i've effectively lost £1500 (£1000 after his £500 back). I think i cut him a good deal really as i'd over paid for the car by more than £500 but if i'd tried him for more money i'd have probably got nothing. It turns out there is a long list of people who've been ripped off by him so anything back is a result.
I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
Too much advice on this forum tells you to move on. If it were me I'd pursue it. People can't get away with this kind of stuff. I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
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