991/981 PCCBs: are they really that bad on track....
Discussion
....financially?
I like the idea of them on my inbound BGTS in theory (we'll park the £5k option price for a moment) due to unsprung weight reduction, no brake dust etc, but although I'm not planning to track the car a lot, that might change in the future.
1) Do they really give up the ghost after 10-15 days?
2) Do people have experience of this? Or is it just an interweb myth that's perpetuating itself?
3) What is the actual replacement cost of them on a 981 - I can't see it offhand on the Porsche web site
I like the idea of them on my inbound BGTS in theory (we'll park the £5k option price for a moment) due to unsprung weight reduction, no brake dust etc, but although I'm not planning to track the car a lot, that might change in the future.
1) Do they really give up the ghost after 10-15 days?
2) Do people have experience of this? Or is it just an interweb myth that's perpetuating itself?
3) What is the actual replacement cost of them on a 981 - I can't see it offhand on the Porsche web site
I personally know somebody who destroyed the PCCB's on his 3.8 RS over a small amount of trackdays, he is a reasonably quick track day driver. When he got his RS 4litre the first thing he did was replace the ceramics.
From memory I think it is about £8k to replace all the discs on a 981.
I've driven GT3s back to back with and without ceramics, I noticed no difference in performance. Pedal feel was maybe slightly better with steels. Although probably a bigger difference on a 981 as the ceramics are much bigger than the standard steels (somebody will know more about this than me).
From memory I think it is about £8k to replace all the discs on a 981.
I've driven GT3s back to back with and without ceramics, I noticed no difference in performance. Pedal feel was maybe slightly better with steels. Although probably a bigger difference on a 981 as the ceramics are much bigger than the standard steels (somebody will know more about this than me).
I've seen lots of Porsches, and other makes, 'on track 'with ceramics with no concerns - after all, they were developed for racing.
I always assumed that, if a car was doing a lot of track use, where brakes are a consumable, then iron discs might be a better option. Think it was only the early generation pccbs, 10-15 years ago, that had issues.
I always assumed that, if a car was doing a lot of track use, where brakes are a consumable, then iron discs might be a better option. Think it was only the early generation pccbs, 10-15 years ago, that had issues.
Putting it in simple terms, it works out as £700-1400 per day (for the disks alone) if you do enough track days to have to replace them in the time that you own the car (a full set of replacement PCCB disks is about £14k on a 987/997 {likely much the same on the 981/991} - way more than the cost of optioning them on the car). Steels are nothing like as expensive. There is a footnote though that there aren't that many long term track day people with ceramics on 981s - they are slower and lighter than 911s so will likely get more life out of ceramics.
If you were going to do a lot of track days and had a car on ceramics, your options are (a) spend the money (b) swap for steel racing disks (PF, Brembo, Alcon, etc) and save the ceramics for when you sell on or retire the car from track activity (c) use the ceramics until spent, then replace with steel. Options b&c can involve negotiations with your dealer if you need to extend your warranty while the ceramics aren't on the car but don't generally lead to warranty claims being rejected in the experience of several PHers that I know.
If you were going to do a lot of track days and had a car on ceramics, your options are (a) spend the money (b) swap for steel racing disks (PF, Brembo, Alcon, etc) and save the ceramics for when you sell on or retire the car from track activity (c) use the ceramics until spent, then replace with steel. Options b&c can involve negotiations with your dealer if you need to extend your warranty while the ceramics aren't on the car but don't generally lead to warranty claims being rejected in the experience of several PHers that I know.
Edited by DiscoColin on Thursday 29th January 19:08
A standard pccb rotor will last 4 pad changes before needing to be replaced at huge cost all other things being equal. The pccb rotor is way more fragile than steel and one trip into the gravel or chip it taking a wheel off and again its lots of money. A fast driver can do a set of pads in a day as they are like cheese. Those are the reasons trackday fans swap them out for steel. I found them excellent on my gt3 but was very aware about treating them nice and swapping out at 50% wear.No dust is a bonus too. Overheat them and they delaminate again leading to expensive replacement. Road use only and they are good for many thousands of miles.
So in summary, PCCBs are a triumph of form over function 
Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison 
Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison Mario149 said:
So in summary, PCCBs are a triumph of form over function Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison
Being the devil's advocate, while agreeing with you personally, you could say that PCCBs are for: Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison 1) People who won't use them where they will make such a difference, or are not capable of noticing the difference - although it must be said that reducing unsprung weight is a very valid aim whether for track or road;
2) People who will use them "properly", will wear them out, but won't care because they always want "the best" and don't mind, or are willing, to pay for it.
So no it's not a lost cause. They exist, you can buy them, and it's not necessarily a stupid thing to do so.
996TT02 said:
Mario149 said:
So in summary, PCCBs are a triumph of form over function Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison
Being the devil's advocate, while agreeing with you personally, you could say that PCCBs are for: Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison 1) People who won't use them where they will make such a difference, or are not capable of noticing the difference - although it must be said that reducing unsprung weight is a very valid aim whether for track or road;
2) People who will use them "properly", will wear them out, but won't care because they always want "the best" and don't mind, or are willing, to pay for it.
So no it's not a lost cause. They exist, you can buy them, and it's not necessarily a stupid thing to do so.
Tbh, if Porsche did a steel 6-pot big brake set for the 981 that somehow magically reduced or eliminated brake dust, that'd def be worth coming on for similar money to PCCBs to me. As it is, I suspect I'll be waiting another 10 years until they're sensible money before deliberately seeking ceramic brakes on any car I buy. Funny to think a couple of weeks ago if someone has offered PCCBs to me for £3k I probably would have gone for it. Wonder how long it'll before I change my mind back again 
Mario149 said:
....financially?
I like the idea of them on my inbound BGTS in theory (we'll park the £5k option price for a moment) due to unsprung weight reduction, no brake dust etc, but although I'm not planning to track the car a lot, that might change in the future.
1) Do they really give up the ghost after 10-15 days?
2) Do people have experience of this? Or is it just an interweb myth that's perpetuating itself?
3) What is the actual replacement cost of them on a 981 - I can't see it offhand on the Porsche web site
I've had 2 991 GT3s, 1 with, and 1 without PCCB. No brake dust is welcome, the on road feel is actually largely the same between ceramic and steel brakes, but on track, I think the ceramics have a better more progressive feel, and seem more resistant to fade. I can't say I've ever heard of them failing after 10-15 days (of presumably track work..?). I like the idea of them on my inbound BGTS in theory (we'll park the £5k option price for a moment) due to unsprung weight reduction, no brake dust etc, but although I'm not planning to track the car a lot, that might change in the future.
1) Do they really give up the ghost after 10-15 days?
2) Do people have experience of this? Or is it just an interweb myth that's perpetuating itself?
3) What is the actual replacement cost of them on a 981 - I can't see it offhand on the Porsche web site
I've also sourced a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 for a friend. It had done 12,000km, had PCCBs, and had done a lot of track work. I had the car inspected, and the wear on the discs was marginal
Regarding replacement cost, I'd suggest calling the parts department of your local dealer, and getting a price for pads and discs.
Mario149 said:
So in summary, PCCBs are a triumph of form over function Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison
Certainly PCCB seem to be the Marmite option for a Porsche, some wouldn't have anything else others wouldn't have them full stop. Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison Interesting your comment regarding the GTS interior pack option, I took rather the opposite view, I thought £2,015 for a few strips of carbon, some red or silver stitching, a red or grey tachometer and striped seat belts made the advanced PCCB technology look good value purely on material terms. I must admit being prejudiced against the interior pack, I initially specified it based on the photographs on the interweb, when we actually saw it in a Boxster at the Silverstone Experience Centre whilst we liked the deviated stitching and striped seat belts neither SWMBO or myself liked the carbon, in as much as it made (to our eyes) the interior very dark and claustrophobic. Having seen it we ended up changing it for the standard Alcantara / leather GTS trim but adding the interior pack painted (chosen colour is Carrara White) to lighten up the cabin trim a bit.
Whilst at Silverstone we drove GTS with and without PCCB, I preferred the brake feel straight away, and so we ended up ordering them. This will be our first Porsche with them so it will be interesting to see how we get on.
On a visual note, the standard brakes, particularly the rears look very puny with the 20" wheels so I do think PCCB's are a big - if expensive - aesthetic improvement over standard.
Edited by dreamcar on Friday 30th January 08:17
My understanding is that there is a different coating( extreme heat repellent) on the CCBDs starting on the TTS and the GT3, Its now the same material used on space flight...I have a bit more tech info on this, I will post up later...
From my own experience even on outside temps of 40d, and over 30 track events, never had a single problem with the CCBDs on TTS and GT3s, other than replacing pads...and brake fluid....much prefer the feel, modulation, that CCBDs offer over steels
From my own experience even on outside temps of 40d, and over 30 track events, never had a single problem with the CCBDs on TTS and GT3s, other than replacing pads...and brake fluid....much prefer the feel, modulation, that CCBDs offer over steels
Edited by APOLO1 on Friday 30th January 08:21
dreamcar said:
Mario149 said:
So in summary, PCCBs are a triumph of form over function Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison
Certainly PCCB seem to be the Marmite option for a Porsche, some wouldn't have anything else others wouldn't have them full stop. Technology developed for the track that works great and lasts almost indefinitely, so long as you use it for the road (where probably 99% couldn't tell the difference unless driven back to back) and not the track. Unless of course you're Mr Money Bags, in which case they're also okay for the track. People take the piss out of the £2k for the GTS interior pack, all of a sudden it's beginning to look pretty epic value in comparison Interesting your comment regarding the GTS interior pack option, I took rather the opposite view, I thought £2,015 for a few strips of carbon, some red or silver stitching, a red or grey tachometer and striped seat belts made the advanced PCCB technology look good value purely on material terms. I must admit being prejudiced against the interior pack, I initially specified it based on the photographs on the interweb, when we actually saw it in a Boxster at the Silverstone Experience Centre whilst we liked the deviated stitching and striped seat belts neither SWMBO or myself liked the carbon, in as much as it made (to our eyes) the interior very dark and claustrophobic. Having seen it we ended up changing it for the standard Alcantara / leather GTS trim but adding the interior pack painted (chosen colour is Carrara White) to lighten up the cabin trim a bit.
Whilst at Silverstone we drove GTS with and without PCCB, I preferred the brake feel straight away, and so we ended up ordering them. This will be our first Porsche with them so it will be interesting to see how we get on.
On a visual note, the standard brakes, particularly the rears look very puny with the 20" wheels so I do think PCCB's are a big - if expensive - aesthetic improvement over standard.
Edited by dreamcar on Friday 30th January 08:17
)Playing devil's advocate, regarding feel, if it was a deal breaker (i.e. steels not good enough), I'm sure it could be sorted with after market pads and a saving of £4.5k or so - ditto brake fade, you don't need new brakes, just different, more appropriate pads AIUI. Now technically they might not be warrantied by Porsche, but my understanding is that OPCs can be pragmatic about things like this regarding warranty so long as you inform them. Or you could always swap them before service time, would only be once every 2 years
Aesthetically, totally agree regarding size
The "no brake dust" argument is a joke. Work out how many times you could get the car professionally valeted for the price of PCCBs.
Carrera Cup doesn't even use ceramic brakes. If you watch how quickly, and therefore not carefully, wheels need to be changed in races (even in timed stops) its easy to see why teams would rather not use them.
Carrera Cup doesn't even use ceramic brakes. If you watch how quickly, and therefore not carefully, wheels need to be changed in races (even in timed stops) its easy to see why teams would rather not use them.
The pccb debate has run for years, although some of the misgivings relate to the earlier Gen 1 and 2 systems.
If you want them or not is really down to personal choice.
I've had them on my last four newly specified Porsches and wouldn't want anything else - road or track - and I wouldn't buy, say, a GT3 without them. And, I think you'll find most people who have had them become converts.
One point to make; if someone is running a Porsche, on track, to such an extent that they are going through pccbs rapidly, you can bet a lot of other components are taking their toll as well.
If you want them or not is really down to personal choice.
I've had them on my last four newly specified Porsches and wouldn't want anything else - road or track - and I wouldn't buy, say, a GT3 without them. And, I think you'll find most people who have had them become converts.
One point to make; if someone is running a Porsche, on track, to such an extent that they are going through pccbs rapidly, you can bet a lot of other components are taking their toll as well.
I think for me personally the issue with PCCBs is that it feels like a risk along the lines of buying a 996 with their engine issues. 19 out of 20 people will be fine, but if you're unlucky (e.g. cook them on a track due to pads not being thick enough, come off and gravel chips them, their endurance isn't as advertised, damage them when changing a wheel etc etc) you're in for a mahussive bill of potentially, in extremis, 20%+ of the current value of the car on what is ultimately a consumable item which seems bonkers. I'd risk buying a 996, because at least if it did go bang I could upgrade the engine and get some of my money back at sale time.
Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
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