Supercharge or turbo my 450?
Discussion
Planning big things for winter 2015 and want opinions options and advice.
Option 1 turbo from earn whalley at torquev8 £2900 inc vat fitted retaining 14cux
Option 2 supercharge kit from sc £3450 inc vat self fitting also retaining 14cux
Neither option uses a cooler which could be added later.
I have compression tested and all is ok and will do a leak down test to be sure.
I don't want to cause myself issues after the install and obviously want reliability over out and out power.
Option 1 turbo from earn whalley at torquev8 £2900 inc vat fitted retaining 14cux
Option 2 supercharge kit from sc £3450 inc vat self fitting also retaining 14cux
Neither option uses a cooler which could be added later.
I have compression tested and all is ok and will do a leak down test to be sure.
I don't want to cause myself issues after the install and obviously want reliability over out and out power.
l6rth said:
Planning big things for winter 2015 and want opinions options and advice.
Option 1 turbo from earn whalley at torquev8 £2900 inc vat fitted retaining 14cux
Option 2 supercharge kit from sc £3450 inc vat self fitting also retaining 14cux
Neither option uses a cooler which could be added later.
I have compression tested and all is ok and will do a leak down test to be sure.
I don't want to cause myself issues after the install and obviously want reliability over out and out power.
I would not go for any without an after market fully mappable ecu and some type of inter cooler .Option 1 turbo from earn whalley at torquev8 £2900 inc vat fitted retaining 14cux
Option 2 supercharge kit from sc £3450 inc vat self fitting also retaining 14cux
Neither option uses a cooler which could be added later.
I have compression tested and all is ok and will do a leak down test to be sure.
I don't want to cause myself issues after the install and obviously want reliability over out and out power.
SILICONEKID345HP said:
I would not go for any without an after market fully mappable ecu and some type of inter cooler .
^^^^^Get the cooler no matter what system. Put in a wideband lambda and a gauge so you can see your air fuel ratio while driving. The AFR will need to be perfect when boost comes. I'd go turbo
Rob, you have completely innocently re-opened a huge debate / can of worms. When I was in your position about 18 months ago I started a thread entitled Turbocharging v Supercharging and it ran & ran for a few months, dozens of pages and even a drag off at Santa Pod, which due to a variety of factors proved inconclusive.
I was, and remain extremely grateful to all that contributed to the discussion at the time (and since) and I learned an awful lot (even from Daz
) but ultimately I went with my original inclination as the pros & cons of each seemed to balance out.
I do not regret sticking with the SC Power kit but I'm quite sure those that have gone down the turbo route are equally happy. I particularly admire Gary (aka Pupp) as he has designed and built a unique turbo installation and has put an awful lot of time and effort into his finished product.
If you're interested and have the time to read through my original thread I'm sure you'll find it through the search function. I'll look forward to meeting with you in a couple of months or so.
I was, and remain extremely grateful to all that contributed to the discussion at the time (and since) and I learned an awful lot (even from Daz
) but ultimately I went with my original inclination as the pros & cons of each seemed to balance out.I do not regret sticking with the SC Power kit but I'm quite sure those that have gone down the turbo route are equally happy. I particularly admire Gary (aka Pupp) as he has designed and built a unique turbo installation and has put an awful lot of time and effort into his finished product.
If you're interested and have the time to read through my original thread I'm sure you'll find it through the search function. I'll look forward to meeting with you in a couple of months or so.
Richard 858 said:
Rob, you have completely innocently re-opened a huge debate / can of worms. When I was in your position about 18 months ago I started a thread entitled Turbocharging v Supercharging and it ran & ran for a few months, dozens of pages and even a drag off at Santa Pod, which due to a variety of factors proved inconclusive. .
Can of worms Richard? no idea what you mean In the end I think it comes down to personal preference, but biggest factor for success is the installer, there are some beautiful installs (e.g. Macdeb) - and some awful cock-ups like Linley's story.
Do also checkout the build thread for my car - or have a look at this page http://tvrengineer.co.uk/tvr-upgrades/super-charge...
Lastly, do not underestimate costs, everyone quotes the basics, but alas unless your good with Spanners (like Richard) - things do get costly especially to undo any badly done work.
Also been playing with the idea of Supercharging my 450, Although seems to be plenty of horror stories also. Who would you guys recommend for supplying and fitting of the kit ? Also from anyone who has done this the same way what are the realistic costs ?
Hope this isn't considered a thread hijack !
Hope this isn't considered a thread hijack !
What is your dynamic compression? It will determine to a large extent how much boost you can use. For 5-7 psi of boost an intercooler isn't really needed and will just be a restriction. I like turbo's but have you considered a centri? It's not that difficult to install on a rover, I fitted one into a Marcos LM, onto the nearside head.
Boosted LS1 said:
What is your dynamic compression? It will determine to a large extent how much boost you can use. For 5-7 psi of boost an intercooler isn't really needed and will just be a restriction. I like turbo's but have you considered a centri? It's not that difficult to install on a rover, I fitted one into a Marcos LM, onto the nearside head.
What boost would i need to get from 345hp to 400hp ?Nick, thanks for the compliment but I'm only an enthusiastic DIYer with some spare time.
Rob & Mark, as Boosted says, firstly check your existing compression ratio, I believe a standard 450 should be around 9.35:1 (whatever standard means ?). The lower the better in order to run higher boost & avoid fears of premature ejac.... I mean detonation. However if going down the SC Power route I would strongly advise fitting the SC500 package with the larger C38 blower and the intercooler from the start, I have recently measure the surface temperatures of the intercooler pipes on a rolling road (with fan) and the inlet (to intercooler) was 48 - 50 degrees C and the outlet was 24-25 degrees C. There are a couple of obvious benefits to having as cool engine inlet temps as possible hence the previous comments, for the additional cost it's definitely worth it.
As far as true cost goes I would allow for around £5,000 inc. VAT excluding fitting for the full package. However I would certainly add uprated engine mounts into this. To get the most out of it it'll almost certainly need a remap, even though you get an upgrade Mark Adams chip with the SC package no 2 cars are exactly the same.
This info may sound a bit scary but at the end of the day, as others have already mentioned be wary of claims of cheap improvements. In general I do believe that you get what you pay for, I have probably spent around £6,500 overall but have had the benefit of being able to recover the VAT (cover your ears Anthony !) which has made things considerably more bearable.
So to come back to the question of how much my outlay has actually been approx. £5,400 for the engine mods I've done plus my own time (and I'm not speedy) but I've achieved an increase of 155 hp and 110 ft.lbs torque at the flywheel. Of course it's horses for courses but if you want to achieve decent gains in one step forced induction (FI) is the obvious choice if retaining the RV8 but the LS route also has it's merits.
It also appears to me that if you do want to convert to FI then wait until your budget will allow and avoid other intermediate upgrades which may need undoing later, i.e. aggressive cam, ported heads etc.
I'm sure this thread will attract alot of interest but if anyone would like any direct opinion from me feel free to email as I'll have a lot of time on my hands in a week or so while I recuperate from heart surgery !
Rob & Mark, as Boosted says, firstly check your existing compression ratio, I believe a standard 450 should be around 9.35:1 (whatever standard means ?). The lower the better in order to run higher boost & avoid fears of premature ejac.... I mean detonation. However if going down the SC Power route I would strongly advise fitting the SC500 package with the larger C38 blower and the intercooler from the start, I have recently measure the surface temperatures of the intercooler pipes on a rolling road (with fan) and the inlet (to intercooler) was 48 - 50 degrees C and the outlet was 24-25 degrees C. There are a couple of obvious benefits to having as cool engine inlet temps as possible hence the previous comments, for the additional cost it's definitely worth it.
As far as true cost goes I would allow for around £5,000 inc. VAT excluding fitting for the full package. However I would certainly add uprated engine mounts into this. To get the most out of it it'll almost certainly need a remap, even though you get an upgrade Mark Adams chip with the SC package no 2 cars are exactly the same.
This info may sound a bit scary but at the end of the day, as others have already mentioned be wary of claims of cheap improvements. In general I do believe that you get what you pay for, I have probably spent around £6,500 overall but have had the benefit of being able to recover the VAT (cover your ears Anthony !) which has made things considerably more bearable.
So to come back to the question of how much my outlay has actually been approx. £5,400 for the engine mods I've done plus my own time (and I'm not speedy) but I've achieved an increase of 155 hp and 110 ft.lbs torque at the flywheel. Of course it's horses for courses but if you want to achieve decent gains in one step forced induction (FI) is the obvious choice if retaining the RV8 but the LS route also has it's merits.
It also appears to me that if you do want to convert to FI then wait until your budget will allow and avoid other intermediate upgrades which may need undoing later, i.e. aggressive cam, ported heads etc.
I'm sure this thread will attract alot of interest but if anyone would like any direct opinion from me feel free to email as I'll have a lot of time on my hands in a week or so while I recuperate from heart surgery !
Edited by Richard 858 on Saturday 31st January 19:29
) on any type of forced induction.Richard 858 said:
Rob & Mark, as Boosted says, firstly check your existing compression ratio, I believe a standard 450 should be around 9.35:1 (whatever standard means ?).
Richard, just for the record the CR on a 450 TVR is nearer 8.9.1 whatever may be stamped on the block.I know this as fact as I went around in circles doubting my own measurements to later have them confirmed by the machine shop I was using aswell as two very well respected gents on these forums. Has to be a reason why FI works so well on the standard engine with moderate boost.
Lol ^ You could do that with a puff of fresh air on a fast straight piece of downhill road ;-)
Seriously, 5 -7 psi could see a 30% torque increase with a decent hike in bhp as a bonus. Installing a Rotrex,
http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/#!rotrex-c30-supe...
is a bolt on job once you've made a cradle to carry it and bolted that to the head. You'll need some pipework to the plenum and an aftermarket ecu, ie a dta, emerald etc.
There are lots of other centri options out there with big flow but you'll still be limited to 7 psi of boost or thereabouts whatever you choose. Unless you lower your c/r and fit forged pistons.
It's an ancient picture but you'll get the gist.
Seriously, 5 -7 psi could see a 30% torque increase with a decent hike in bhp as a bonus. Installing a Rotrex,
http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/#!rotrex-c30-supe...
is a bolt on job once you've made a cradle to carry it and bolted that to the head. You'll need some pipework to the plenum and an aftermarket ecu, ie a dta, emerald etc.
There are lots of other centri options out there with big flow but you'll still be limited to 7 psi of boost or thereabouts whatever you choose. Unless you lower your c/r and fit forged pistons.
It's an ancient picture but you'll get the gist.
macdeb said:
Richard, just for the record the CR on a 450 TVR is nearer 8.9.1 whatever may be stamped on the block.
I know this as fact as I went around in circles doubting my own measurements to later have them confirmed by the machine shop I was using aswell as two very well respected gents on these forums. Has to be a reason why FI works so well on the standard engine with moderate boost.
Thanks for the correction Mac, and I certainly agree with your conclusion.I know this as fact as I went around in circles doubting my own measurements to later have them confirmed by the machine shop I was using aswell as two very well respected gents on these forums. Has to be a reason why FI works so well on the standard engine with moderate boost.
4.0's and 4.6's have much better pistons then the earlier engines and are a better place to start if planning to stick with the stock c/r. This way your engine doesn't need to be opened up unless you want to fit head studs and change the head gaskets as a precaution.
If you want to run higher boost you can fit twin charge coolers, maybe like this.
I initially ran with a single cooler at the base of the windshield but could hear the water boiling inside when stationary because I'd forgotten to fit the pump on lol. The twins allowed the cores to be changed for thicker or thinner items. The intercooler stretched across the boot underneath the spoiler.
If you want to run higher boost you can fit twin charge coolers, maybe like this.
I initially ran with a single cooler at the base of the windshield but could hear the water boiling inside when stationary because I'd forgotten to fit the pump on lol. The twins allowed the cores to be changed for thicker or thinner items. The intercooler stretched across the boot underneath the spoiler.
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