Immediately Working for a Competitor?

Immediately Working for a Competitor?

Author
Discussion

C.A.R.

Original Poster:

3,967 posts

187 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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As some of you may have read on my other recent thread in this section; Working with Employees and Family Members - the very basic shorthand of that is that I am a 'victim' (for want of a better term) of Nepotism in the workplace. Basically, I'm being squeezed out and expected to train the MD's son to do my duty - albeit his is of school age and totally incapable.

Anyways, there I was minding my own business and cracking on with things when I received a phonecall from an unrecognised number.

A competitor just up the road from here (where I have been interviewed in the past) has got hold of my details and has an opening for a salesman just opened up.

Now, to quickly raise a few points-
- I don't like it where I am
- I have a second child due mid-June this year
- I need job security (as above)
- I have been looking for other employment
- This would be the same role in the same industry, but for a competitor.

The firm is based a little further away than I would like - ideally I want to work closer to home, not further away! But they want someone experienced and I have a good history with one of their current employees. They are not yet advertising the position, but have offered me an interview first.

At the time, I declined, as the company has a reputation for a fast turnover of staff. However, since the recent debacle of being treated like excriment by the MD at my current place it has dawned on me that the customer base I uphold could cause this company a lot of trouble if I suddenly left - it is true that I feel almost excited by the prospect of denying my current company the business they rely on.

Now that may sound harsh, but the situation has dictated I feel this way.

On another note; I recently applied way in advance for some leave so I could attend a dating scan with my partner who is now 20 weeks pregnant. So hap-hazard is the holiday situation here it was revealed just a few days before I was due to be off that I had in fact used my holiday allowance up (due to moving out last year). Anyway, it was a bit up in the air as to whether I would be paid or not etc. The reason this has caused an upset is that we are expected to be treated equally (obviously) and yet the Directors' son has all the time off he could possibly want - so much so that the company has given up recording his holiday days. I have been with the firm for nearly 4 years and it took a lot more effort to try and get the holiday (Paid) leave for 1 day removed from my allowance for the following year. Anyone with an ounce of respect would have just allowed me to take it - I typically receive / reply to phone calls and emails even on my days off!

So back to the live situation. The above prompted me to ask our administrator for a copy of my Contract of Employment since I can't find a copy (could have been lost in the recent move perhaps). Anyway... it transpires that the company forgot to draw up a formal contract for me.

Now I'm thinking; I could use this to my advantage, so I have kept quiet about it.

What I'm asking the readers of PH is, whether it would be legally correct for me to just up and leave - without any notice? Or is there a mandatory period which has to be offered, if you have been working with a company for a certain amount of time?

I'm also interested to hear whether you think it is morally correct too. I'm furious with the company and the way they have treated me over the last few weeks, that it has lead me to this feeling of wanting to get my own back.

In the past I have had a contract (again for a similar company) which stated that I could not leave to work for a competitor within 3 months of my contract terminating - how much water that holds I don't know.

The way I read it now is; I could leave and be working elsewhere as early as tomorrow. That would really upset the people here - whom I have ran out of respect for - and it could bag me a comfortable payrise too, with the only cost being a longer commute.

I'm keen to know what everyone else thinks?
Have you ever left to work for a competitor?
How real is the saying The Grass is Always Greener?

There would be no coming back from doing something like this either, but I can't see what negative implications that might have?

Asterix

24,438 posts

227 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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If you don't have a contract then you can't have a non-competitor clause - so no issues there.

Notice - I'd give 30 days.

Just go and look forward. Don't let revenge or malice shape your future - you'll burn yourself.

Assess the risk if the current mob bad-mouth you to your industry - regardless, it's never a bad thing for you to be the professional person.

scottri

950 posts

181 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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Asterix said:
If you don't have a contract then you can't have a non-competitor clause - so no issues there.

Notice - I'd give 30 days.

Just go and look forward. Don't let revenge or malice shape your future - you'll burn yourself.

Assess the risk if the current mob bad-mouth you to your industry - regardless, it's never a bad thing for you to be the professional person.
Do this, its good advice.

MrSparks

648 posts

119 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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Asterix said:
If you don't have a contract then you can't have a non-competitor clause - so no issues there.

Notice - I'd give 30 days.

Just go and look forward. Don't let revenge or malice shape your future - you'll burn yourself.

Assess the risk if the current mob bad-mouth you to your industry - regardless, it's never a bad thing for you to be the professional person.
Second this also. Family businesses are a pain in the arse and you will never win!

It's a difficult one but job security isn't always everything. Move whilst you can, don't burn bridges. If possible put a percentage of your salary to savings after you move job to start building a safety net, if the worst happens at least you'll be able to survive for a few months whilst finding work. Negotiate a better salary from the new company if you move....

PorkInsider

5,877 posts

140 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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I'd second all the advice you've been given in this thread.

Don't worry about whether it's morally right to go to a competitor; it's what happens in many (most) industries all the time.

Make sure you don't tell the prospective employer how much you don't like where you are now. There's nothing to be gained and plenty to be lost from that in terms of them knowing they don't need to offer a decent financial carrot to poach you and it never looks good to slag off the old boss anyway.

I would just try to negotiate yourself a good deal at the new place, if you want to go there, and leave where you are now as professionally as you can.

elanfan

5,516 posts

226 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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You owe these muppets nothing - they sound like they'll be lucky to still be in business in a years time.

In your shoes I'd draw up a list of grievances and wait until payday and on that day confront the MD. Don't hold back as you've nothing to lose. My guess is hell flip at which point you have been constructively dismissed. Turn on your heel and happily walk. Whether you follow up the constructivel dismissal is up to you - though they deserve everything that's coming to them!

Sharted

2,615 posts

142 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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In terms of notice I would give as much as your pay frequency, so if monthly paid give a month.

Don'r worry about the legal position of working for a competitor, it happens all the time and the absence of a contract leaves you in a strong position.

Jerry Can

4,422 posts

222 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
quotequote all
so the new company has a bit of a revolving door policy, and you have a lot of contacts.

they're going to pump you dry and spit you out, stay where you are and wait for something better.

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
quotequote all
elanfan said:
You owe these muppets nothing - they sound like they'll be lucky to still be in business in a years time.

In your shoes I'd draw up a list of grievances and wait until payday and on that day confront the MD. Don't hold back as you've nothing to lose. My guess is hell flip at which point you have been constructively dismissed. Turn on your heel and happily walk. Whether you follow up the constructivel dismissal is up to you - though they deserve everything that's coming to them!
Sounds like awful advice to me. If you've already got another job offer then its going to be pretty obvious you just tried to provoke a reaction. And you're going to burn bridges. The son could move on a year or two from now and the OP might want to go back there for whatever reason... why risk making that impossible?

tumble dryer

1,996 posts

126 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
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Upside; new job, less cr@p and probably a better salary.

Downside; longevity – by the way you’ve detailed their revolving door policy.

Upside; let your current employers ‘find out’ that you’re considering jumping ship. To them.

Downside; you won’t be trusted, for a while.

Upside; you’ll find out your real worth.


If you [-]manipulate[-/] negotiate well, you’ll take two steps up the ladder, but keep looking over your shoulder.


Good luck.

(That’s be my game plan...)






C.A.R.

Original Poster:

3,967 posts

187 months

Tuesday 3rd February 2015
quotequote all
Interesting points - thanks all. Apologies in advance for any poor spelling as.I'm now using my mobile...

I've done a little more investigating tonight - contacted a former employee who used to work at this new company to try and get a better idea of this revolving door situation. The news is positive - he left because he was head-hunted by another company who offered him a better salary. The other person I was aware had left apparently left to work for the market leader too - so definitely not as bad as it looked originally. It's very handy knowing these people and staying connected through social media!

I agree heavily with one of the posts above - I owe these guys nothing. I've tried time and time again to boost our company image and nobody seems the least bit interested in my efforts. I want to work for a company that has a modicum of ambition.

Luckily I'm close with my immediate boss - he too has the same issues with the current working situation / ethic but is much more lassias-fayre about it, something which can probably be attributed to his higher salary (therefore giving him a greater tolerance of the bullsh*t). I have deliberately made him aware of my intentions to leave because whilst I'm positive he won't divulge this information with the Managing Director he will with his superior (hope that makes sense).

Furthermore I have organised to meet with this company informally later this week to see if I would be compatible. Even the intrigue of meeting this company has made me.realise how much I need to stop whinging and moaning (such as my other thread!) and actually DO SOMETHING about it.

TurricanII

1,516 posts

197 months

Wednesday 4th February 2015
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Be careful in your interview/chat with any potential new employer. You may already be aware buy if you slag off your current employer - even if justified - it is very unattractive to the new employer. Work out your diplomatic reasons for leaving.

Also as you join a new company you can be sacked from day one up to two years for no reason other than "its not working out". As you have been with your current employer for more than a couple of years you do have more security staying with them - i.e. employee rights that make it tough to just fire you. If you are looking to address that risk you might try to find some 'Income protection' insurance policies that might cover you. When I had some risk at short notice (joining a startup business) I whacked my overdraft up and sold my car just in case - and knew somewhere to live and a list of companies where I would seek work if it didn't work out.

TheAllSeeingPie

865 posts

134 months

Wednesday 4th February 2015
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TurricanII said:
Also as you join a new company you can be sacked from day one up to two years for no reason other than "its not working out".
I thought there were statutory minimums to avoid this?

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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TheAllSeeingPie said:
I thought there were statutory minimums to avoid this?
Only if its because of race, gender etc.

Personally I wouldn't put too much weight on time served at the current place. If they're going to manage you out of a position they're going to do it and there is little to nothing you can do about it. If you feel thats on the cards then I'd move when it suited you rather than risking being disciplined out of your current job and have that black mark there.

C.A.R.

Original Poster:

3,967 posts

187 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
quotequote all
I respect the comments recommending that I don't burn bridges etc. but I feel that I will never have a place in this company again (it's only small, about 8 office-based staff). The company is not in a strong place in the market, losing jobs left right and centre due to quality issues etc. and they are looking to implement a new software / quotation system - something which killed off my previous company because nobody could get it to work and the customers didn't like it!!

So, I can't see this going anywhere and I certainly can't see me coming back. If I needed a reference I would turn to my immediate boss (sales director) who I car-share with and we get along very well - so I don't need the help of the directors here. The sales director actually appreciates why I'm doing what I'm doing.

When I started here 4 years ago there was a natural path of progression; I was a sales manager at a company which had just gone bust and this company wanted an experienced estimator. Eventually, I would take up the role of Sales director as he progressed into the manufacturing side of things. This natural path has been 'intersected' by the MD's inexperienced son who has this overwhelming arrogance because he knows that some day he will take over the company from his father. It is this constant undermining of my position which has made me feel pretty worthless in the company, despite all that I do for it - I re-wrote the entire company website from nothing, have produced marketing flyers, tried to promote the company in the best possible light, used my CAD skills to produce working drawings - way outside of what is expected of me in this role, yet all the focus is on whether sales are being successful. They will miss the 'extra curricular' things which I do for them and the sales director has already pointed out that they will really struggle without anybody technical to produce drawings. Good luck to them.

My meeting is at 5:30 this evening, after work. I'll report back on how things go...

mildmannered

1,231 posts

152 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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C.A.R. said:
I respect the comments recommending that I don't burn bridges etc. but I feel that I will never have a place in this company again (it's only small, about 8 office-based staff). The company is not in a strong place in the market, losing jobs left right and centre due to quality issues etc.
Just bear in mind, even if you never work there again, you may bump into these people in the future as they disperse through the sector you work in!

TheAllSeeingPie

865 posts

134 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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KFC said:
TheAllSeeingPie said:
I thought there were statutory minimums to avoid this?
Only if its because of race, gender etc.

Personally I wouldn't put too much weight on time served at the current place. If they're going to manage you out of a position they're going to do it and there is little to nothing you can do about it. If you feel thats on the cards then I'd move when it suited you rather than risking being disciplined out of your current job and have that black mark there.
According to ACAS it's only for Gross Misconduct e.g. "when an employee has committed a serious act such as theft, violence, physical abuse, serious breach in health and safety or gross negligence" more here: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4096

I'm pretty sure a job interview is not gross misconduct ...

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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I guess a real solicitor will be along in a bit to answer but I'm relatively confident you can't just fire someone 6 months in because they're black or female.

TurricanII

1,516 posts

197 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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After a couple of years there are hoops to jump through for the employer to avoid dismissing someone 'unfairly' and end up at a tribunal. Up to two years an employee is easy to dispatch. You can be fired on day one. The offer of employment can be withdrawn before you start and after you give notice at the old employer! There are risks to consider so have a plan if the next job is not working out.

I neglected to mention that the employer cannot discriminate against people based on sex, sexuality, race and several other attributes at any time.



Pit Pony

8,265 posts

120 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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Imagine if the place you are wanted to get rid of you, and the boss happened to be drinking buddies / members at the masons / golf partners / brothers in all but name, and they colluded to get you to resign, and once into the new job, fire you for it "not working out"

I'm a master with conspiracy theories. Anyway, just be cautious, as nobody gets to be the boss without being a little bit of a tt.