Confused by the E9x M3
Discussion
Long story short - my company car goes back in a few months time, and due to the truly cruddy car list that we have now, I'm taking cash instead. The good news is that when I take cash there are no restrictions at all on what I can buy. Some of our guys even take the cash and don't have a car at all.
Seriously thinking about the E90 M3 as a good option. But there's one question that I can't quite get a simple answer to: some say that this is one of the most reliable cars BMW have ever made. Others say that this engine is a time-bomb that will spin rod bearings sooner or later, and need a replacement engine at very high cost. As I tend to keep my cars for a long time, this is a worry.
So, what's the truth about this car, ultra reliable and brilliant, or high risk of grenading engine and subsequent huge invoice for a replacement??
Seriously thinking about the E90 M3 as a good option. But there's one question that I can't quite get a simple answer to: some say that this is one of the most reliable cars BMW have ever made. Others say that this engine is a time-bomb that will spin rod bearings sooner or later, and need a replacement engine at very high cost. As I tend to keep my cars for a long time, this is a worry.
So, what's the truth about this car, ultra reliable and brilliant, or high risk of grenading engine and subsequent huge invoice for a replacement??
Fair amount of large bill potential as with all M cars but generally the engine is pretty strong and not known for failures though you might need to replace throttle actuators which can be expensive (edit you can get these refurbished for under £500 now so not such a worry maybe), most would still advise a warranty.
Edited by Crusoe on Friday 27th February 11:45
I guess my worry is that from what I can see, rod bearings fail without any real warning, and there's no 'obvious' time / mileage. As an example, the upgraded IMS for Porsche M96 engines has a recommend life of 40,000 miles. I seem to hear of S65s with spun bearings at < 30k, and others that go 80k + without any problems. This could be down to driving style though - I never work an engine hard until I know it's properly warmed up, but previous owners may not have been so mechanically sympathetic.
The answer is easy. Change the bearings immediately after buying. The cost is limited when compared to the price of a new engine, and peace of mind is priceless in my book anyway. Then keep oil change intervals short (my preference is 12.500 kms max, 1 year max), use the right oil (in my experience / preference only Castrol 10W60 TWS, but there are others who choose other lubricants; about 50% of the whole interwebs is filled with M oil debates, the other half consisting of aforementioned Porker IMS stories :-)), make sure you put some heat into the engine & oil before you give it the beans and you will be fine.
As others have said it as an M/// Car so will have the potential for big bills. Buy one and just stick a BMW warranty on it and you then have peace of mind.
Had mine almost a year now and I have had the following done under the AUC warranty;
2 wheel speed sensors
Replacement diff oil
Repair to a leak on DCT gearbox
New Battery
Lubricate steering column as it was squeaking.
Nothing major but all in all probably about £1500 work.
I will definitely be renewing my warranty just in case a big bill comes up.
Had mine almost a year now and I have had the following done under the AUC warranty;
2 wheel speed sensors
Replacement diff oil
Repair to a leak on DCT gearbox
New Battery
Lubricate steering column as it was squeaking.
Nothing major but all in all probably about £1500 work.
I will definitely be renewing my warranty just in case a big bill comes up.
The general advice with high perfrance BMW's is to have a warranty but on the plus side they are an everyday car. So many scary stories on www but then people only tend to write online when things go wrong. Look at it in a different perspective... Google dsg reliability, vw water pump failure etc. Our octavia has had a new engine (chain stretched) and dsg box (controller failure) this year, over £10k in warranty claims. My m3 is probably less £1000 in claims. Every car has issues which can lunch an engine or destroy your wallet.
Wouldn't worry about it, just buy the best one and get a warranty.
Wouldn't worry about it, just buy the best one and get a warranty.
Patrick Bateman said:
I suspect, as ever with forums, the rod bearings 'issue' is greatly exaggerated.
This. I believe there are some buyers guides out there but the E9x M3 seems generally much more reliable than the closely related M5/M6 - which I believe mostly suffer issues relating to the SMG boxPatrick Bateman said:
I suspect, as ever with forums, the rod bearings 'issue' is greatly exaggerated.
I suspect it probably is. It also seems that a lot of reported problems are in the USA, with modified engines. I've got a local Indy, so might look at cost for a 'preventative maintenance' replacement anyway though.I had mine for 3.5 years and did around 55k miles with a lot of high speed Autobahn driving and quite a few track days. The engine was fine and felt better and stronger with more miles on it. I was a little precious with oil changes and did them every 9,000 miles but I thought it made sense as a high revving V8 needs a lot of oil.
I suspect the S85 is a bit more finicky about it as the high pressure VANOS system tends to make a nice home for the wear particles. (This has resulted in many replacing all four solenoids preventively and now BMW doubling the price on them.) I would imagine the S65 should experience a longer life on the bearings without failure even with the excessive wear. On the other hand, if you're a glass-half-full type, you could view the S85 VANOS as an early warning system vice spinning a bearing.
Of the twelve S85s and 3 S65s I've pulled apart, not one had over 70k miles and the bearings were highly worn, over half of those through the Babbitt. Only two of those were modified and one only with a tune.
There's a chap on M5board (GJS) who lives somewhere in the UK and has experienced similar with several S85/S65 rebuilds. Another from Germany (Duschanio) has opened up well over 30.
There's a well respected fellow in Luton (Raikku with Evolve) who will share the same perspective and has rebuilt numerous S65/S85s and is adamant the bearings should be replaced preventively.
There is a tech at a dealer in Atlanta, GA who has replaced the rod bearings in at least 10 cars and had it covered under warranty.
There's a vendor in the US (Troy Jeup) who has sold over 130 S85 engines in the last two years. 99% of those are due to spun bearings, with the other 1% being a broken valve spring or failed VANOS HP pump.
It's not to say that all engines will fail as a result, but until I see a single engine opened up where the bearings look satisfactory, I'll err on the side of caution. It's not so much a "hair on fire" mentality, but cause for concern. I like Troy Jeup, but have no intention of having to buy an engine from him.
Of the twelve S85s and 3 S65s I've pulled apart, not one had over 70k miles and the bearings were highly worn, over half of those through the Babbitt. Only two of those were modified and one only with a tune.
There's a chap on M5board (GJS) who lives somewhere in the UK and has experienced similar with several S85/S65 rebuilds. Another from Germany (Duschanio) has opened up well over 30.
There's a well respected fellow in Luton (Raikku with Evolve) who will share the same perspective and has rebuilt numerous S65/S85s and is adamant the bearings should be replaced preventively.
There is a tech at a dealer in Atlanta, GA who has replaced the rod bearings in at least 10 cars and had it covered under warranty.
There's a vendor in the US (Troy Jeup) who has sold over 130 S85 engines in the last two years. 99% of those are due to spun bearings, with the other 1% being a broken valve spring or failed VANOS HP pump.
It's not to say that all engines will fail as a result, but until I see a single engine opened up where the bearings look satisfactory, I'll err on the side of caution. It's not so much a "hair on fire" mentality, but cause for concern. I like Troy Jeup, but have no intention of having to buy an engine from him.
Most people not as ballsy/stupid as myself..... Having wanted an e92 M3 for some time I bought one 3 years ago. An isle of Mann import (low tax!) 6 previous owners (from an independent mixed car dealer on a back yard industrial estate!), and yet didn't bother with warranty just self insured (saved £250 p/m into contingency fund).
My heart sank when on 3 occasions I had the engine fault reduced power set of symbols, including on way to Goodwood FOS.,, leaving me in limp home mode 200 miles from home and with the ropiest sounding M3 at Goodwood!
In the 2 years (20,000 miles) I owned it the 3 engine faults were all ignition coils, which as par for the course took out all spark plugs affected as well.
None the less I never had a bill for more than I saved. Peterborough BMW were always awesome with it (even swapping coils around rather than replace which worked on one fault).
My M3 has now gone, and I guess I was lucky on my cavalier attitude to purchase! But aside from minor stuff it was always bullet proof.... I maintained it well and it did have full service history. I felt the running costs didn't justify the ownership experience in the end. I've not heard of any horror stories (first hand) of E92 but lots of ignition coil stuff like me.
My heart sank when on 3 occasions I had the engine fault reduced power set of symbols, including on way to Goodwood FOS.,, leaving me in limp home mode 200 miles from home and with the ropiest sounding M3 at Goodwood!
In the 2 years (20,000 miles) I owned it the 3 engine faults were all ignition coils, which as par for the course took out all spark plugs affected as well.
None the less I never had a bill for more than I saved. Peterborough BMW were always awesome with it (even swapping coils around rather than replace which worked on one fault).
My M3 has now gone, and I guess I was lucky on my cavalier attitude to purchase! But aside from minor stuff it was always bullet proof.... I maintained it well and it did have full service history. I felt the running costs didn't justify the ownership experience in the end. I've not heard of any horror stories (first hand) of E92 but lots of ignition coil stuff like me.
jcolley said:
Of the twelve S85s and 3 S65s I've pulled apart, not one had over 70k miles and the bearings were highly worn, over half of those through the Babbitt. Only two of those were modified and one only with a tune.
There's a chap on M5board (GJS) who lives somewhere in the UK and has experienced similar with several S85/S65 rebuilds. Another from Germany (Duschanio) has opened up well over 30.
There's a well respected fellow in Luton (Raikku with Evolve) who will share the same perspective and has rebuilt numerous S65/S85s and is adamant the bearings should be replaced preventively.
As a matter of interest, were any of those engines showing signs of bearing failure before some sort of failure, or did the owners effectively have zero warning before something failed?There's a chap on M5board (GJS) who lives somewhere in the UK and has experienced similar with several S85/S65 rebuilds. Another from Germany (Duschanio) has opened up well over 30.
There's a well respected fellow in Luton (Raikku with Evolve) who will share the same perspective and has rebuilt numerous S65/S85s and is adamant the bearings should be replaced preventively.
DavidJG said:
As a matter of interest, were any of those engines showing signs of bearing failure before some sort of failure, or did the owners effectively have zero warning before something failed?
None of the engines I have changed bearings on had a failure of any sort, all were done as a preventive maintenance.I do have a spare S85 in the garage for a project car with a spun bearing and scored crankshaft and the previous owner had nothing more than a reduced power/check engine light as the first symptom. On running diagnostics, the VANOS system failed the performance test and replacing the solenoids revealed metal particulate clogging them. Further investigation by draining the oil and cutting apart the oil filter identified more metal particulate and he decided to drop the oil pan and found the spun bearing.
Lots of M3, M5, and M6 owners had no early signs as well.
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