Anyone done / experience of PhD?

Anyone done / experience of PhD?

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LeftmostAardvark

Original Poster:

1,434 posts

163 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
I'm just finishing a pgce and have got some very strong grades in the masters credits, to the point where I started discussing PhD with the uni tutors who encouraged me to put in a quick email to one of the professors concerning my specific expertise (from a previous career but very relevant to education). This has attracted interest so I'm meeting next week to discuss further.

Does anyone have experience of going through this process? Anything I should know - funding, what the trigger points are for getting approved (e.g. The proposal has a fair chance of being able to generate fees through consultancy for the university - is this a plus point), etc.?

Thanks.

STW2010

5,714 posts

161 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
I have a PhD in chemistry and now have PhD students of my own.

The funding sources range significantly, but I would expect the funding to be secured for the full 3 years (not dependent on consultancy). There are tuition fees to pay if you are self-funded. If not then the funding available would at least pay the fees, plus pay you a tax-free stipend on top (these range from £12k to £17k typically).

Funding is very competitive. I was recruited to my PhD project, as this was an advertised PhD project with funding in place. The funding covered the fees, stipend, travel and experimental work.

Consultancy later on could have benefits to you. First, if you don't have a stipend then you could earn some money. If you are on a stipend then you may not earn anything extra, but you may be able to allocate some of the consultancy project costs into travel or use it to purchase equipment/software relevant to the consultancy and your own PhD.

Lastly, make sure you do the PhD for the right reasons. It is at least 3 years on one project and really doesn't guarantee you a good job afterwards (over and above other postgraduate qualifications you have). It is obviously essential (in most cases) if you wish to pursue a career in academia. I can also comment on this if you wish.

Does that answer your questions? Feel free to ask more, or PM me if you prefer.

LeftmostAardvark

Original Poster:

1,434 posts

163 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Thanks, that is lots of useful info. I've come at this at a bit of an angle, so it isn't an advertised position, more a first meeting to discuss a position paper I sent to the recommended professor.

I think it will be a long road ahead, but if this meeting goes well, what are the next steps? What I'm proposing has fee earning implications for the university, how much of an asset would that be in their choice to take my proposal on to the PhD, irrespective of whether I derive any income from that consultancy directly (although I hope I would be on the consultancy team in some format). Also, how much flexibility is there in terms of gaining funding? Is it at the university's discretion or through funding bodies like esrc?

Basically, I'm trying to get a handle on what is likely to come out of the meeting and what the next steps might be, so I can anticipate what I need to prepare and try and get a roadmap of hurdles in my head before I achieve the goal of starting on a funded PhD.

dxg

8,123 posts

259 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
STW2010 said:
Lastly, make sure you do the PhD for the right reasons. It is at least 3 years on one project and really doesn't guarantee you a good job afterwards (over and above other postgraduate qualifications you have). It is obviously essential (in most cases) if you wish to pursue a career in academia. I can also comment on this if you wish.
I also supervise several PhD students and have to reiterate the importance of this.

While a PhD is essential for an academic career, there are now so many PhD students out there and academic jobs are so rare, that pursuing a PhD for this reason alone is probably quite a blinkered approach to take.

It will vary by discipline, of course, but you need to have a career plan in place. You also need to have the motivation and interest to see the thing through. I often describe PhDs as not being that difficult (they really aren't; particularly not with the right supervisor wink ), but they are a lot of work and will be a slog at times...

dxg

8,123 posts

259 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
LeftmostAardvark said:
Thanks, that is lots of useful info. I've come at this at a bit of an angle, so it isn't an advertised position, more a first meeting to discuss a position paper I sent to the recommended professor.

I think it will be a long road ahead, but if this meeting goes well, what are the next steps? What I'm proposing has fee earning implications for the university, how much of an asset would that be in their choice to take my proposal on to the PhD, irrespective of whether I derive any income from that consultancy directly (although I hope I would be on the consultancy team in some format). Also, how much flexibility is there in terms of gaining funding? Is it at the university's discretion or through funding bodies like esrc?

Basically, I'm trying to get a handle on what is likely to come out of the meeting and what the next steps might be, so I can anticipate what I need to prepare and try and get a roadmap of hurdles in my head before I achieve the goal of starting on a funded PhD.
Ways to get a PhD:

- pay for it yourself. (Universities will love this, of course).

- get a researcher job and do the PhD part time as the fees will be covered. (The best option, imho).

- get your own funding by applying directly to a research council. Notoriously difficult in my field nowadays, unless you go through one of the research centres that those bodies have set up, but they only cover narrow topics of national interest. You mention ESRC - so you're a social sciences kinda guy, then? Also look at Leverhulme.


I'm not sure what you mean by fee-earning potential. All Universities these days have an enterprise function, so will encourage you to offer your services on the market. They will back you up with PI insurance, but will take a massive cut off your day rate and will impose minimum day rates on you, too, which - in my area - makes me uncompetitive.

If you're talking about IP generation, then that's taken as a given. Only a few PhDs produce anything patentable, and the University will claim a share of that, too.

STW2010

5,714 posts

161 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
The meeting will tell you a lot. The prof will have substantial experience of this and so will be able to advise. He/she may even have funding already through existing contracts, which doesn't always need to be specifically for a PhD. The university may be in a position to offer bursaries to cover the fees, or have schemes available such as Vice Chancellor scholarships. This varies a lot though.

Funding is very flexible. The previously mentioned bursaries/scholarships will be at the university's discretion (or through a competitive process internally). I have no experience of ESRC, but see here- http://www.esrc.ac.uk/funding-and-guidance/postgra...

LeftmostAardvark said:
Basically, I'm trying to get a handle on what is likely to come out of the meeting and what the next steps might be, so I can anticipate what I need to prepare and try and get a roadmap of hurdles in my head before I achieve the goal of starting on a funded PhD.
Outcomes could really be 'yes, this is an interesting idea' or 'no, I don't see the PhD here'. The fact you are meeting tells me it's a more positive train of thought, but then you will get onto the topic of funding.

Pursuing a PhD in a topic more-or-less defined by you is ideal, but is the hardest in terms of securing a funded place (I have one student who is self-funded, and they came up with the project with my guidance). Applying for advertised posts through jobs.ac.uk is the most common route.

STW2010

5,714 posts

161 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
dxg said:
Ways to get a PhD:

- pay for it yourself. (Universities will love this, of course).

- get a researcher job and do the PhD part time as the fees will be covered. (The best option, imho).

- get your own funding by applying directly to a research council. Notoriously difficult in my field nowadays, unless you go through one of the research centres that those bodies have set up, but they only cover narrow topics of national interest. You mention ESRC - so you're a social sciences kinda guy, then? Also look at Leverhulme.

- apply for advertised PhD places, which are usually funded either by a research council or a company. Or both.


To keep things together I've added another option I've already mentioned to the above list.

STW2010

5,714 posts

161 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
dxg said:
You also need to have the motivation and interest to see the thing through. I often describe PhDs as not being that difficult (they really aren't; particularly not with the right supervisor wink ), but they are a lot of work and will be a slog at times...
Just to pick up on this too. If I ranked my degrees in order of actual difficulty then it would be-

1. BSc
2. MSc
3. PhD

BUT, I learned things going through them which made me ready for the next step.


mike9009

6,918 posts

242 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Just to echo other posters advice.

I started a PhD some 20 years ago. It was a sponsored placement and at Jesus College, Oxford. I was 'wowed' by it all, I enjoyed my final year project (so thought research was my 'bag'), did not have a firm career plan and also had no other offers of employment.

So I went into it and hated it. I left after about six months. Others I knew dragged it out for years with no firm conclusion...

It was an experience - but hindsight made me realise I was not prepared for it. I have some mates who completed their PhDs and now work in completely unrelated fields on 'relatively' low salaries. Other 'less' academic mates have made a massive success in related industries. (Materials Science/ Metallurgy, for reference)

Leaving the PhD was the best thing I did - and industry has treated me well through my career.

Just make sure your motivation for doing a PhD is sound. Seek some professional career advice at this stage before you go down this route.... taken seriously it will really help you.


Mike


Dr Slotter

408 posts

145 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Having done a PhD myself, and now work in academia, I agree with most of what's been said so far. It's worth emphasising that the PhD funding process, the level of 'income' during it (inc. the opportunities to increase it) and the likelihood of a job that uses it afterwards varies massively with the subject/discipline. Universities also massively differ when it comes to their approaches to things like consultancy.

As has been said your potential supervisor should know most of the specifics for your case.

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
If I might hijack this thread for my own cause briefly, can I ask the Doctors in the house if there exists any requirement of qualification needed for PhD or if the idea is good enough, can you dive straight in?

Sorry for what may be a daft question but I've developed something that a few others have suggested worthy of pursuit on this but I posses unique, relevant experience and a handful of O levels only.

Joey Ramone

2,150 posts

124 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
If I might hijack this thread for my own cause briefly, can I ask the Doctors in the house if there exists any requirement of qualification needed for PhD or if the idea is good enough, can you dive straight in?

Sorry for what may be a daft question but I've developed something that a few others have suggested worthy of pursuit on this but I posses unique, relevant experience and a handful of O levels only.
A good brain is a good brain. However, my university would insist upon a strong academic track record at degree/postgraduate level. I've come across some seriously bright people with a handful of O-Levels who would be a suitable PhD candidate even before doing an MA, for example, but the latter serves a purpose. I went straight from BA to PhD and it fried my brain. In my subject area (IR/History) you need to have experience of building layered, extensive and often highly theoretical written arguments, and to begin thinking on the sort of scale that is so far beyond undergraduate level (read and recite, cut and paste) that it's laughable. As a consequence, I found out that my BA was scant preparation for the rigours of a PhD. So I can understand why they generally need to have evidence of a sizeable dissertation in your academic past before being let on such a course. Either that, or your proposal is so outstanding, so well written and so comprehensive that it instantly dispels all doubts but i have to say, that's pretty rare.

But go for it anyway. Nothing to lose. Their major concern will be taking you on simply for you to drop out, with all the hassle that causes and implications for their reputation. If you can prove that you're up to it intellectually, and have the necessary financial stamina, then you might have a pleasant surprise.

dxg

8,123 posts

259 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
It also depends on the discipline.

Some of the sociology depts will require an MRes first and, indeed, some of the ESRC funded centres operate on a four year PhD programme: 1 year MRes + 3 years PhD.

Me? I did BSc, then some years in industry, then straight into an RA post with the PhD done part time. No Masters. Just never saw the point, really.

I should also mention that one of the very best PhD students I ever saw was a chippy with no formal qualifications of any kind. He used his construction site experience to convince his potential supervisor that he deserved a chance at a studentship and he *excelled* at it. He's now off "doing fancy things with risk" in the real world at an international level.

Another very good academic that I know started life as a plumber, with a similar route to higher levels of education.

Oh, and the very best researcher I ever employed got the job because she refused to answer one of my questions at interview. She argued that it was unanswerable (to be fair, she probably had a point). She's now off "doing fancy things with economics" in one of the big utilities.

So, it pays to know your mind and to have an informed mind. Opinions alone, without the backup, won't get you that far.

Edited by dxg on Tuesday 3rd March 19:18

dxg

8,123 posts

259 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
Joey Ramone said:
But go for it anyway. Nothing to lose. Their major concern will be taking you on simply for you to drop out, with all the hassle that causes and implications for their reputation. If you can prove that you're up to it intellectually, and have the necessary financial stamina, then you might have a pleasant surprise.
To pick up on this point. Every academic is measured (among many other things) by their number of successful PhD completions. If an academic takes you on and you don't make it through, it's as much a disaster for them as it is for you. So anyone making you an offer will have to be absolutely convinced that you have the capacity to see it through to the end: in terms of both motivation and intellect.

Dr Slotter

408 posts

145 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
Again, I agree with much that has been said, so just to say that in my discipline (engineering) for the typical new PhD student has an 1st/2.1 MEng (UK/EU students) or BSc and MSc (non-EU students) of similar collective standard. Part of that is that the majority of UK/EU engineering students who are likely to think about doing a PhD in engineering are probably already doing MEng. That said, my latest new UK/EU recruit 'just' has a 1st class BSc which is not that uncommon, especially with the ever increasing number of 4 year PhD programmes which have enough time in there for some technical training to bridge the gap.

What I know of what happens in science it seems to vary by how 'pure' the sub-discipline is e.g. you're more likely to need BSc/MSc in physics then in something likely molecular biology.

ChevronB19

5,737 posts

162 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
quotequote all
I did a PhD after my Masters. I can't regret it, as I am now in a place where I want to be, but it was hell due to terrible source material (Quaternary geology) and a supervisor who just didn't supervise.

I agree with the previous poster about order of difficulty of degrees. For many subject areas, a Further degree is more a test of tenacity than brains.

I did postdoctoral work for a couple of years, then, when I was appalled at being offered 16K p.a. For a postdoc either in central London or Miami, I packed it in, was on the dole for a while, and now am in a vaguely related work area doing a job I love that is reasonably well paid. Put me off academia for life!

In essence, you need a) a good supervisor (my problem was I thought he was interviewing me, I should've been interviewing him) and b) tenacity. A further option of c) full funding (which I was lucky enough to have) is a great help!

Had I not benefitted from late 80's full grants and no tuition fees I wouldn't have done it.

STW2010

5,714 posts

161 months

Sunday 8th March 2015
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The pay in academia has certainly moved on since Chevron's earlier days!

If you can get a research assistant post and do a PhD part-time then you would be on a salary of around £24k. A post-doc position should pay £28k plus.

How did the meeting go OP?

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Sunday 8th March 2015
quotequote all
Mine was funded by a studentship. Candidates were invited to submit research proposals. I was already working in the field that interested me as a research assistant.

I ran out of funding, and the extension I had been promised by the previous director was vetoed by his replacement. So I got a job and finished writing up in my spare time. By the time I was awarded it I had a rewarding and better paid career outside science.