Mobile phone in cradle - legal to use? Recent test cases?

Mobile phone in cradle - legal to use? Recent test cases?

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Discussion

threadlock

Original Poster:

3,196 posts

253 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
It seems the law on mobile phone use while driving remains vague in relation to the specific question of whether my phone is still a hand held device when it's mounted in a cradle fixed to the car:
https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-drivin...

Several webpages later and I'm still unclear whether I can lawfully use my phone as a sat nav and for speakerphone calls while it's in its cradle:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=113...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topi...
Etc etc.

Has any recent case law clarified things at all? Would be grateful for some facts (rather than speculations or "pretty sure"s or "IIRC"s).
Thanks smile

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Is it held in your hand? If so, it's hand-held. It's not exactly brain surgery.

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Is it held in your hand? If so, it's hand-held. It's not exactly brain surgery.
So feel free to use it while it's resting on your lap.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Is it held in your hand? If so, it's hand-held. It's not exactly brain surgery.
hand-held is strict liability if they catch you then they can do you - your choice to dispute it - but not being on a call is no defence.

otherwise if you are seen and PC Plod thinks it's DWDCA/ careless/ dangerous s/he'll report you for that and include your phone use as part of the evidence.

ging84

8,829 posts

145 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
did you read the whole of the first website you have linked to
the one where it states

Using hands-free devices when driving
You can use hands-free phones, sat navs and 2-way radios when you’re driving or riding. But if the police think you’re distracted and not in control of your vehicle you could still get stopped and penalised.

what is not clear ?

OldGermanHeaps

3,801 posts

177 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
I got 3 points for it, phone in brodit cradle, plugged into parrot mki9200 using tomtom through the van speakers. Trafic notification audio came up and asked if i wanted to reroute, i pressed the yes button and that was all. Panda car coming the other way turned round and stopped me, when i argued my case i was told that if i took it to court both pcs would swear that they seen it in my hand up to my ear. They were absolutely fking delighted they "caught" somebody on the morning the fine went from £60 to £100, they were smirking and making snidey remarks. After hating the police through my youth then as i got older realising a lot of them are just doing a difficult job, running in to these 2 and getting screwed over reminded me that power corrupts some people and I think the sour taste of that will affect my willingness to help or co-operate in any other encounters with them.
Bought my first dashcam after that, and I have fitted loads into taxis since then and lots of taxi drivers say the same thing has happened to them or being falsely accused of jumping a red light, riled them up enough to spend a few quid to protect their licenses.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Monday 2nd March 02:02

tapereel

1,860 posts

115 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
ging84 said:
did you read the whole of the first website you have linked to
the one where it states

Using hands-free devices when driving
You can use hands-free phones, sat navs and 2-way radios when you’re driving or riding. But if the police think you’re distracted and not in control of your vehicle you could still get stopped and penalised.

what is not clear ?
well you shoudl quote the whole of it to get the full meaning.
Im not going to but will say it starts by saying "using Hand-held devices is unlawful" then concludes with the point you quote saying "using hands-free devices is lawful".

So OP to quote ginge84, "what is not clear?"

If your phone is in the cradle you can use it 'hands-free' so you can use but cannot touch.

USE means as it is written any use, so if you touch it while driving then it is unlawful.

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
tapereel said:
If your phone is in the cradle you can use it 'hands-free' so you can use but cannot touch.

USE means as it is written any use, so if you touch it while driving then it is unlawful.
Confirmed by case law or just your interpretation ?

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

112 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
The answer is in the legislation;

"a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function"

If it's in a cradle it's neither held nor must it be held in order to use it.

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

112 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
hand-held is strict liability if they catch you then they can do you.
Really? scratchchin

What if it's a genuine emergency, it was impracticable to stop and you dialled 999? Is it still 'strict liability'?



agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
SS2. said:
Confirmed by case law or just your interpretation ?
His (wrong) interpretation. There is at least one Scottish case - Brocklebank?

threadlock

Original Poster:

3,196 posts

253 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
The points raised in this thread are exactly why I've asked for clarification. Some people think that if my phone is in the cradle it's legal to touch the screen to interact with it (since I'm not holding the device) and it's exactly like a sat nav, while others point out the words "hands-free" in the Government's explanation of the law and suggest that it's not lawful to use my hands in any way when interacting with my phone. (In which case, why are sat navs OK?)

At some point these things must have been tested in court, surely? Since it seems to be open to interpretation, the law seems a little vague.

mygoldfishbowl

3,691 posts

142 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
It's not hand held if it's in a cradle.. That's it.

threadlock

Original Poster:

3,196 posts

253 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
mygoldfishbowl said:
It's not hand held if it's in a cradle.. That's it.
I can't tell: Is this a fact, or is it your interpretation of the law?

(If it's a fact, could you point me to your source please?)

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

112 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
threadlock said:
I can't tell: Is this a fact, or is it your interpretation of the law?

(If it's a fact, could you point me to your source please?)
Google the regulations and read them. They're written in an odd language known as English. They're not designed to trick you.

threadlock

Original Poster:

3,196 posts

253 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
allergictocheese said:
Google the regulations and read them. They're written in an odd language known as English. They're not designed to trick you.
Didn't I link to the regulations in my first post? If so, I have already read them. If those aren't what you mean, please could you tell me where I can find them?

allergictocheese

1,290 posts

112 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
No, the actual wording is here (the relevant regulation is 110 of the Construction and Use Regulations 1986).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/regul...

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
It is not complicated: if the phone is secured in a cradle, then it is permissible to use it, just as it is permissible to use the dashboard controls of the car. You must, however, at all times be in proper control of the vehicle, of course.

If the story about the police offers conspiring to lie that the poster had the phone to his ear is true, it indicates two things: 1. those two policemen understood that it is not a contravention to use a phone in a cradle; and 2. that the officers threatened to pervert the course of justice, which would be an odd thing for them to have done.

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
Hand-held + using = offence

Cradle + using = not an offence, unless "not in proper control" - in which case, slightly different offence, same penalty.

AndyNetwork

1,831 posts

193 months

Monday 2nd March 2015
quotequote all
allergictocheese said:
No, the actual wording is here (the relevant regulation is 110 of the Construction and Use Regulations 1986).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/regul...
Just read this, and could a woman get off on a technicality, as the actual wording says "him"?