Dashcam footage and dangerous driving

[vonhosen]

Driver101 said:

vonhosen said:

None of that alters the poor driving in the video, the sort of driving we should be addressing.
The Police need the publics help in providing evidence of offending in all aspects of offending (people tend to hide there behavioural traits in the presence of Police or there aren't enough around to catch them redhanded), it's not restricted to terrorism, burglary etc.

It is poor driving and nobody is arguing against that. The person either made a mistake, an error of judgement, or was in a duel with the OP and was needing to win it. It wasn't safe, but nor was it as dangerous as the OP is painting. It's hard to tell, but it doesn't look as if the Bentley was that close to the RR. It wasn't that near a miss, just a poor bit of driving.

I'm sure we've all been occasionally caught out not knowing where we are going and made a reasonably rash decision. This could have been the case for the Bentley driver and he still could have had the awareness to see he could carry out the very late exit without causing an accident. That's not me saying I think it's acceptable, I just don't think it merits getting called into the police about. I'm sure the guy will know he made a mistake himself, or realises he was driving like a prat when his red mist also goes.

The OP himself braked and changed lane very late. He joined the inside lane to exit with not much more than 50 yards to go. That's not good driving to begin with. There has to be a reason why he was so rash with his exit and end up right on the arse of the Lexus.

He then follows far too close to the Lexus and that's dangerous. Adding to that the Lexus is that big his visibility is obscured. That's dangerous driving too.

Like he said the red mist had already descended. He's then chased after the Bentley for an incident that should have had nothing to do with him. He's started to accelerate to catch up, then the RR has suddenly changed lane.

Then the OP has to change lane again at the roundabout as he has gone out of his way to get to the Bentley.

Yes the Bentley driver has done wrong, but the OP's driving isn't exactly exemplary. None of the two ended up in accidents, but on another day both could have come to more. They didn't, so draw the line and move on from it.

We can lecture the Bentley driver for his rash move, but the OP isn't that much better.

I'm not convinced in the no accident no harm mantra.
Ignoring it isn't likely to change things for the better.
It's a choice for the OP at the end of the day.
If he doesn't care about driving like that then yes ignore it, if he does there is no point in ignoring it when something can be done about it.
Ignoring something gives tacit approval to it.

It doesn't qualify for Sec 2, but there's enough there for a lesser offence.

[Devil2575]

LoonR1 said:

vonhosen said:

The Police would be the people deciding what to do with it.
The witness is the person alerting them to it & providing evidence of it, just like the person who calls Police after seeing somebody running a key along the side of a neighbours car on his security camera.

You should have used stabbing someone for dramatic effect. There is little value in the country being populated by camera wielding idiots reporting every single minor infraction that they perceive to have happened. We are already subject to some major surveillance by CCTV which can be used when / if something worthwhile happens, but having people running around acting as they are starting to would make for a draconian society b

I disagree entirely.

The first point is that camera footage removes the perception aspect. Cameras don't lie, unlike peoples memories and perceptions.

The second point is that the best way to achieve the behaviour in society we would like is for ordinary people to take responsibility for it rather than simply relying on the Police. If people know that they can't behave a certain way because it isn't acceptable and that they can't get away with it they will stop doing it. If this was about local people taking on responsibility for dealing with kids behaving antisocially I suspect no one on PH would have a problem would it. What about shoplifting? If you saw someone shoplifting would you have a problem with other people stepping in or alerting shop security? How about having a chat with a neighbour who is driving like a complete tool up your road? If he ignores you or tells you to fk off would it be OK to talk the the Police?
I suspect the reason for the objections here are because this concerns driving and deep down a few of you don't want this sort of thing to become common place because it might result in you getting into bother. What this driver didn't wasn't a simple mistake, it was a stupid move that could so easily have caused a serious accident. Would I have felt the need to report this specific incident? Probably not, but there are situations where I would have done. Watching a car drive down the road at speed with young children unrestrained in the back for example. The lady in an MX5 who came round a bend on the wrong side of the road and forced me off the road was another example.

[Devil2575]

vonhosen said:

I'm not convinced in the no accident no harm mantra.
Ignoring it isn't likely to change things for the better.

I agree. You don't reduce the incidence of serious events by only focusing on those events. You reduce them by spotting the near misses and the behaviours that can lead to the serious events and addressing them. This is a core principle of managing risk.

http://crsp-safety101.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/the-s...

[LoonR1]

You're probably right. I don't want my every move scrutinised amd sent to the police as someone will undoubtedly be offended by a lot of what I do, not just driving related, as there are such precious souls out there.

Driving though is an interesting one, as shoplifting is a clear crime. No ifs, no buts. However, me driving at 35mph, whilst equally a "crime" is unlikely to affect many. My reactions are pretty good and my car will most definitely stop from 35 quicker than yours will from 30. Thats a subjective and biased view though, much like any opinion you have on this. And that's the crux of the matter. We all consider ourselves excellent drivers and well above average, but who's then assessing us? The below average driver? The beardy IAM rider? The all weather biker wrapped up like the Michelin man in the height of summer?

What about cars? The bloke in the Prius going flat out decides he's unhappy that I'm in his way. Report me? After all, none may think he has a case. The policing system would simply grind to a halt as all these spurious claims of idiotic driving overload the system and then when people don't get "justice", they have a rant in The Daily Mail. Somewhere a politician takes notice and speed limits drop further and so on.

I have no issue with a civilised society expecting citizens to adhere to the basic profiles of a free society. I have a huge problem with people appointing themselves judge and jury on offences over which they have no training.

[vonhosen]

LoonR1 said:

You're probably right. I don't want my every move scrutinised amd sent to the police as someone will undoubtedly be offended by a lot of what I do, not just driving related, as there are such precious souls out there.

Driving though is an interesting one, as shoplifting is a clear crime. No ifs, no buts. However, me driving at 35mph, whilst equally a "crime" is unlikely to affect many. My reactions are pretty good and my car will most definitely stop from 35 quicker than yours will from 30. Thats a subjective and biased view though, much like any opinion you have on this. And that's the crux of the matter. We all consider ourselves excellent drivers and well above average, but who's then assessing us? The below average driver? The beardy IAM rider? The all weather biker wrapped up like the Michelin man in the height of summer?

What about cars? The bloke in the Prius going flat out decides he's unhappy that I'm in his way. Report me? After all, none may think he has a case. The policing system would simply grind to a halt as all these spurious claims of idiotic driving overload the system and then when people don't get "justice", they have a rant in The Daily Mail. Somewhere a politician takes notice and speed limits drop further and so on.

I have no issue with a civilised society expecting citizens to adhere to the basic profiles of a free society. I have a huge problem with people appointing themselves judge and jury on offences over which they have no training.

But they aren't judge & jury.
They are concerned citizens. Those assessing, disposing, prosecuting, judging & sentencing on the 'information' they provide are where they have always been & are for everything else.

[LoonR1]

vonhosen said:

But they aren't judge & jury.
They are concerned citizens. Those assessing, disposing, prosecuting, judging & sentencing are where they have always been & are for everything else.

Sorry, but encouraging video vigilantism with driving is a slippery slope IMO. Few can manually assess speed with any degree of accuracy and the same goes for other driving styles.

We're never going to agree. You seem to welcome the start of a dystopian society, I dont.

[vonhosen]

LoonR1 said:

vonhosen said:

But they aren't judge & jury.
They are concerned citizens. Those assessing, disposing, prosecuting, judging & sentencing are where they have always been & are for everything else.

Sorry, but encouraging video vigilantism with driving is a slippery slope IMO. Few can manually assess speed with any degree of accuracy and the same goes for other driving styles.

We're never going to agree. You seem to welcome the start of a dystopian society, I dont.

How they assess it doesn't matter, they simply provide the information to others who assess. The same people who'd assess it if a Police camera had caught it. If there is nowt in it it goes nowhere, if there is it can go somewhere & address the issue of poor driving.

Whether you like it or not cameras are here & they are at liberty to hand it in already.

[Potatoes]

Less talking.

More videos of st driving.

[SK425]

Devil2575 said:

The second point is that the best way to achieve the behaviour in society we would like is for ordinary people to take responsibility for it rather than simply relying on the Police.

The problem with that is the definition of "we" in that sentence. Who is "we"? "We" includes the people who think ordinary people doing lots of reporting to the police is a good thing and the people who think ordinary people doing lots of reporting to the police is a bad thing. There is no consensus on which of those behaviours is the one "we" would like. What ordinary people can do is take responsibility for their own behaviour. So when it comes to driving for example, the person whose driving standard you are most able to influence is you. A focus on making you better will be more fruitful than a focus on making other people better. I'm not suggesting nothing should ever be reported, but the first response to an instinct to report an event should be, "how susceptible am I to behaving like that?". I have a bit of a problem with the idea of reporting someone to the police who isn't worse than me.

Devil2575 said:

I suspect the reason for the objections here are because this concerns driving and deep down a few of you don't want this sort of thing to become common place because it might result in you getting into bother.

I don't think it concerns driving particularly. The first sentence of yours that I've quoted isn't specific to driving and my concerns about it aren't specific to driving.

[miroku]

Sorry, I am having difficulty getting this. So, you video someone, in your opinion, driving badly.
Then what? You rock up at a police station. "Officer I would like you to look at this tape and take action" Not sure what you are expecting to happen. In the case of the OP I think you are more likely to incriminate yourself.
Speaking to friends who are serving police, I think they would have a laugh at your expense.
Sorry OP but I think you come across as a wannabe cop.
I really have difficulty relating to someone who wants to drive around taping someone
else going about their business, even though you may not agree with their driving ability.
The guy may be in the wrong , in your opinion, but how you put yourself in a position of judge I really do not get.
Maybe driving gods do exist?

[Devil2575]

SK425 said:

I don't think it concerns driving particularly. The first sentence of yours that I've quoted isn't specific to driving and my concerns about it aren't specific to driving.

So you think that the best way is for people to ignore antisocial and illegal behaviour because it is none of their business?

Does this include not getting involved if the Police ask you if you witnessed a crime? Not stepping into stop some kids smashing up a bus stop?

Where do you draw the line? Only when crimes impact directly on you?

The reality is that the behaviour you walk past is the behaviour you accept. If you think the answer is to ignore stuff because it's none of your business and someone else's job to sort out then that's your call. Forget incidents on the road, personally I think it's time for people to start taking responsibility for what goes on in their communities and letting the anti social amongst us that their behaviour is unacceptable. The people who have most to lose from this are those who behave antisocially.

[Driver101]

Devil2575 said:

I disagree entirely.

The first point is that camera footage removes the perception aspect. Cameras don't lie, unlike peoples memories and perceptions.

The second point is that the best way to achieve the behaviour in society we would like is for ordinary people to take responsibility for it rather than simply relying on the Police. If people know that they can't behave a certain way because it isn't acceptable and that they can't get away with it they will stop doing it. If this was about local people taking on responsibility for dealing with kids behaving antisocially I suspect no one on PH would have a problem would it. What about shoplifting? If you saw someone shoplifting would you have a problem with other people stepping in or alerting shop security? How about having a chat with a neighbour who is driving like a complete tool up your road? If he ignores you or tells you to fk off would it be OK to talk the the Police?
I suspect the reason for the objections here are because this concerns driving and deep down a few of you don't want this sort of thing to become common place because it might result in you getting into bother. What this driver didn't wasn't a simple mistake, it was a stupid move that could so easily have caused a serious accident. Would I have felt the need to report this specific incident? Probably not, but there are situations where I would have done. Watching a car drive down the road at speed with young children unrestrained in the back for example. The lady in an MX5 who came round a bend on the wrong side of the road and forced me off the road was another example.

Most people don't get involved with matters that don't concern them in real life.

Do you carry a camera around on the street to catch dangerous situations, violent behaviour and criminal offences to highlight to the police?

Other than your dash cam, what do you do in real life to reduce the chances of people having accidents?

All these morals that you are suggesting people with dash cams display isn't how they behave in real life. It's a totally different set of circumstances.

Most people won't say something on the street as they are too scared. They'll walk past and leave a person in danger.

However given them a dash cam and a car to hide in, suddenly they are the big man they weren't in the real world.

What you see is people making big deals about nothing incidents. What is also common is they ignore their own mistakes and issues.

Too much double standards on show.

[miroku]

Devil, agree with your sentiments totally. But, how do you think this is going to work?
Dozens of dash cam warriors arriving at local, possibly unmanned police stations, offering their records of, in their opinion, poor driving.
I guess subjective in the extreme.
I am amongst the first to jump up and object to something I think is unjust etc. But, this is just bonkers.

[vonhosen]

SK425 said:

Devil2575 said:

The second point is that the best way to achieve the behaviour in society we would like is for ordinary people to take responsibility for it rather than simply relying on the Police.

The problem with that is the definition of "we" in that sentence. Who is "we"? "We" includes the people who think ordinary people doing lots of reporting to the police is a good thing and the people who think ordinary people doing lots of reporting to the police is a bad thing. There is no consensus on which of those behaviours is the one "we" would like. What ordinary people can do is take responsibility for their own behaviour. So when it comes to driving for example, the person whose driving standard you are most able to influence is you. A focus on making you better will be more fruitful than a focus on making other people better. I'm not suggesting nothing should ever be reported, but the first response to an instinct to report an event should be, "how susceptible am I to behaving like that?". I have a bit of a problem with the idea of reporting someone to the police who isn't worse than me.

Then you've learnt something from it for yourself & done something about it for yourself, as well as taking steps that ensure something is being done about their inappropriate behaviours too.

If you do what he did perhaps someone needs to report you.

People tend to report people for stuff that they don't believe they would be likely to do, not stuff they do themselves.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 3rd March 23:43

[vonhosen]

miroku said:

Devil, agree with your sentiments totally. But, how do you think this is going to work?
Dozens of dash cam warriors arriving at local, possibly unmanned police stations, offering their records of, in their opinion, poor driving.
I guess subjective in the extreme.
I am amongst the first to jump up and object to something I think is unjust etc. But, this is just bonkers.

The Police grab stuff for themselves off youtube now & follow it up, a live witness delivering it direct rather than it being picked up by a media site is even better no?

[vonhosen]

Driver101 said:

Devil2575 said:

I disagree entirely.

The first point is that camera footage removes the perception aspect. Cameras don't lie, unlike peoples memories and perceptions.

The second point is that the best way to achieve the behaviour in society we would like is for ordinary people to take responsibility for it rather than simply relying on the Police. If people know that they can't behave a certain way because it isn't acceptable and that they can't get away with it they will stop doing it. If this was about local people taking on responsibility for dealing with kids behaving antisocially I suspect no one on PH would have a problem would it. What about shoplifting? If you saw someone shoplifting would you have a problem with other people stepping in or alerting shop security? How about having a chat with a neighbour who is driving like a complete tool up your road? If he ignores you or tells you to fk off would it be OK to talk the the Police?
I suspect the reason for the objections here are because this concerns driving and deep down a few of you don't want this sort of thing to become common place because it might result in you getting into bother. What this driver didn't wasn't a simple mistake, it was a stupid move that could so easily have caused a serious accident. Would I have felt the need to report this specific incident? Probably not, but there are situations where I would have done. Watching a car drive down the road at speed with young children unrestrained in the back for example. The lady in an MX5 who came round a bend on the wrong side of the road and forced me off the road was another example.

Most people don't get involved with matters that don't concern them in real life.

Do you carry a camera around on the street to catch dangerous situations, violent behaviour and criminal offences to highlight to the police?

Increasingly mobile phones are used for that by witnesses to such events.

[Driver101]

vonhosen said:

The Police grab stuff for themselves off youtube now & follow it up, a live witness delivering it direct rather than it being picked up by a media site is even better no?

Not really as you'll put enormous and completely unnecessary pressure on the police with every dash cam warrior with a case of road rage wanting to complain.

The cases I've seen the police take action are usually high profile cases that are have been given huge exposure. Usually the ones that end up popular are extreme and not petty like most of the incidents people want to make issues about.

[vonhosen]

Driver101 said:

vonhosen said:

The Police grab stuff for themselves off youtube now & follow it up, a live witness delivering it direct rather than it being picked up by a media site is even better no?

Not really as you'll put enormous and completely unnecessary pressure on the police with every dash cam warrior with a case of road rage wanting to complain.

The cases I've seen the police take action are usually high profile cases that are have been given huge exposure. Usually the ones that end up popular are extreme and not petty like most of the incidents people want to make issues about.

If you give it to them, they'll prioritise what they can deal with & they'll leave the rubbish. How long do you think it takes them to look at that video & decide whether it's worth looking deeper into?

[Driver101]

vonhosen said:

Increasingly mobile phones are used for that by witnesses to such events.

I'd disagree even though most people have one to do so.

A few years back we went through a period of the camera warriors being the ones that just wanted to be annoying, get attention, then argue out their right to film in a public place. People were behaving in totally irrational ways just to prove a point and getting it all on camera to prove they were right. Thankfully it seems that craze is fading out.

Now we've got that mentality of people in cars with cameras.

[vonhosen]

Driver101 said:

vonhosen said:

Increasingly mobile phones are used for that by witnesses to such events.

I'd disagree even though most people have one to do so.

A few years back we went through a period of the camera warriors being the ones that just wanted to be annoying, get attention, then argue out their right to film in a public place. People were behaving in totally irrational ways just to prove a point and getting it all on camera to prove they were right. Thankfully it seems that craze is fading out.

Now we've got that mentality of people in cars with cameras.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10492778/Lee-Rigby-trial-jury-shown-eye-for-an-eye-video.html